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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

I the past week I was able to get some glider and emergency forced land practice in with my Mark 3 Xtra ! The first time I landed on a fairway at the golf course south of our field and the second was yesterday,but was able to make the airport...both times were non-events do to the fact I had the skis on.After the first time we thought it it may have had a frozen fuel line...checked ,cleaned ,refiltered and ran it up on the ground and she ran fine...then took her in the air and again,no problem...yesterday,I took off and everything was great for about 7 minute when it started running rough and quit.After landing,I got it running again,but this time I could see gas pouring out the front of the carb.Ends up the float needle had a ridge around it and in certian spots it would  let fuel pass by the seat and flood the engine out.Anyway,I have a new needle coming ( the black tip one with the stronger internal spring ) which Jabiru says will take care of the problem.

    Just a heads up the you Jabby Guys ! 



Blue skys,

chris ambrose

M3X/Jab   A-2200    170.5 hrs  ser-1228

N327CS

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Chris, were these forced landings due to the cold? This sounds a little scary to me. It was lucky you had skis on as it gave you more options for picking an emergency landing spot. There's nothing worse than having the engine quit. My 912 has been very reliable so far. I'm hoping it stays that way.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Ralph,

The cold ended up having nothing to do with it...it was the float needle causing the problem...the first time even after I got it running at the hangar it would idle fine and no trace of fuel coming out the front...It sounds like there has been a problem with certain engines in the past.It has run perfectly up the is point and I am certain this will take care of it...I will be staying around the lake though for awhile ..lol



chris ambrose

M3X/Jab

N327CS

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Ralph,

Actually,I think you 912 guys are running the carb/needle /seat combo...there are 3 different ones...silver/black and pink tip needles...My Jab has a 40 mm ,64 carb....the 64 and 94 are basically the same as I understand..

chris ambrose

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Chris,



Thanks for the heads up. Did you change the standard Jabiru issue Bing 94 for a 64? Or was this a typo?



They are both CV carbs and function similarly and probably have some parts in common but not all of them by a long shot.



Thom 

Jabiru with standard Bing 94

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Thom, The difference between a Bing 64 and a 94 is the size (probably not a surprise there). The throttle valve of a 64 is 36 mm (1.417"), the 94 can be 42 or 44 mm (1.654 - 1.732").



Rick Girard

 

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Chris,

 

 Thanks for the heads up. Did you change the standard Jabiru issue Bing 94 for a 64? Or was this a typo?

 

 They are both CV carbs and function similarly and probably have some parts in common but not all of them by a long shot.

 

 Thom

 Jabiru with standard Bing 94

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32

 

 

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Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

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Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Hi Chris, 



good to hear that your OK.  Nice job in getting down safely not once, but TWICE!!  I'm impressed with your dedication to train for emergencies. 



Is there a way to test for this issue? Can the needle be inspected for this groove?  

I tried to start my 2200 for the first time on Tuesday but the starter solenode was faulty,  brand new.  Aircraft Spruce is replacing it. 



It would be nice to use your experience to fix an issue before I had to deal with it.  Thanks for the heads-up.  This is exactly how this site helps everyone. 



Lurker Frank



M3X, 

0 hrs, preparing for Airworthy cert.

Do not post

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Frankd,



To answer your question to Chris, yes you can inspect the float needle for wear.



If you are concerned about this particular issue, drop the bowl of the Bing carb and inspect the float needle. Depending upon how easy it is, or is not, to get your eyeballs on it, you may have to dismount the carb to see it well. If you are not familiar with the Bing CV (64 & 94) carbs, go to



http://www.bingcarburetor.com/manual.html



and purchase their manual for $11 including shipping in the USA. Once you have this in hand, most mechanically inclined pilots can take the carb apart and clean and inspect everything for wear and condition.



Thom Riddle

Powerplant Mechanic

http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

start my 2200 for the first time on Tuesday but the starter solenode was 

faulty,  brand new>>



Hi Frank,



I had some starting problems to begin with.Upgraded the battery and put a 

cheap solar panel charger on the hangar roof  which I plug in whenever the 

plane is in the hangar. Cost about £13 I think. No mains elec. as it is in a 

field..Good investment when you cant fly as often as you would like.

Has bags of power and no probs since, even through the winter.



good luck



Pat

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Rick,

There is more difference than just the throat size between the 64 and 94 carbs. I've done complete disassembly, cleaning and inspection of both types and their operating principles are the same but not all seemingly identical parts are the same; some are and some are not. 



Jabiru's earliest 2200 engines came with a Bing 94 with 32mm throat but they switched to 40mm Bing 94 beginning with S/N 699 (which is what they all have now, including the 3300, but with different jets and needles).

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Frankd,



After thinking about it for a moment I realized that you can't get deep enough into the Bing 94 carb to inspect the float needle valve tip without removing the carb and removing the float support mechanism which requires removal of the float hinge pin which is item 14 in the attached image. I hope this helps.

Bing 94.jpg

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Thom...



Yes ...Mine is the Bing 94....I dropped the carb bowl...took the rod that holds the floats in out  ( there is a knurled end on the left end as you are looking forward on the Kolb and goes in and comes out that side) then the float and needle will drop down.... careful of the tiny Jesus clip holding it on ! if you look real close you can see if it has the ridges...magnifying glass is great... also,I did not say before ,but mine had the pink tip one...



chris ambrose

M3X/jab    170 hrs

N327CS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Chris,



Mine is too hard to get to with the wings on to do that without removing the carb first. Mine has the black tip and it is in good shape with about 260 hours on it.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Hi Thom,

thanks for the diagram. 

I think I'll get the engine started first and do the taxi tests and see how its all going before I start digging into the Carb to check this needle.  

I also need to verify what model Bing I have and Engine # as I'd like to leave it alone if it ain't broke. 



What worries me this that Chris had an issue after his engine ran fine for some time.. 



On another topic,  when I did a fuel flow test using just a external fuel pump I got about 1gal in three minutes,  is that too much fuel flow and will it flood the engine or does the engine fuel pump regulate the flow enough to keep it all in spec?

I saw some air in the fuel line before the fuel pump and it seemed that most of the fuel was pulling from one tank and not both. Gotta test for leaks. 



All advise much appreciated



Frank D

M3X

Hollister, Ca.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Frank,



Jabiru specifies in their installation manual that the minimum fuel pressure (to the carb inlet) is .75 psi and the maximum is 3 psi. 



Fuel flow tests are done to make sure that the fuel supply system up to the carb is sufficient under maximum power conditions. The standard most go by is that the fuel flow to the carb inlet should be at least 150% of the maximum power fuel requirement. Max power fuel requirement of the Jabiru 2200 is about 6.5 gph so 150% would be about 9.75 gph which is about 1/2 gallon in three minutes. This means that with the external fuel pump you have twice the minimum. No problem with that BUT, and this is a big BUT. You must make sure that this pump in series (I assume) with the engine mounted pump does not produce more than 3 PSI to the carb inlet.



I have a Facet electric pump that I use for making sure the float bowl is full before starting but then turn it off just before starting. I don't know the pressure output of this pump and would only use it if the engine driven pump seemed to be acting up. If you plan to use them in series and simultaneously, you need to do a fuel pressure test to make sure you don't overpower the float valve. 3 PSI is max.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lcottrell1020(at)hughes.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

I have a Facet electric pump that I use  for making sure the float bowl is full before starting but then turn it off just  before starting. I don't know the pressure output of this pump and would only  use it if the engine driven pump seemed to be acting up. If you plan to use them  in series and simultaneously, you need to do a fuel pressure test to make sure  you don't overpower the float valve. 3 PSI is max.



Just a  disclaimer here. I also run a facet fuel pump, but I leave mine on all the time  due to the fact that my fuel is lower than optimal for my engine. However I  bought the fuel pump that is rated for our engines. You can get them with  varying pressures, mine is 3-5 psi. That way you won't have to worry about over  powering your carbs. 

 Merry Christmas, or not if you are an atheist. 

 Larry

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

   [quote][b]

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys. Carb issue

HI Guys, 



I got my Jabiru 2200 started yesterday for the first time since I purchased it- 3 years ago!.   YEAH.. 



But, I had fuel going from the carb clear line into the air filter and then dripping out onto the plane ,  so the engine run was short. 

Can someone confirm that this line is the overflow from the bowl as the schematics I have don't show it. 



I believe that this is just like the issue Chris had where the float needle valve is not functioning correctly and overflowing the float bowl. 



I have the Bing 94/40, standard for engine # 902. I think that sitting around for three years may have gummed up the float needle valve,  and  will take it apart and clean it and also check for wear like chris suggested.  I'll look for a pink tip. 

Any other advise?? while I'm doing this. 



The solenode issue was solved and once started the Jab ran smoothly at idle power. I did not get to run it up due to the fuel drip issue. 

One step closer to flight!



Frank D

M3X , 0hrs, Jab 2200 started!

Fuel dripping.

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Frank,

 That line is a bowl vent.It insures that the atmospheric pressure on the fuel in the bowl is the same as the pressure of the air at the carb air inlet.If fuel comes out of that line, the the seal at needle and seat is faulty.A microscopic fiber can cause the problem.Keep a good filter between fuel tank and carb and a soft tipped needle if you still have a brass one.

 G.Aman

 

   

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:36 am Post subject: Re: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Hi Everyone,



I got her going yesterday with the new float needle valve and she seems to run good....taxiing out I thought it stumbled for a second and returned to the hangar to run it up again,but all sounded good, so up I went. I ended up taking the carb off to install the new needle and will remove if it has to be done again later on ( hopefully not) !



The pink one is the old one...black tip is the new......the video  was  part of the test flight yesterday...



Happy new year to all and have a safe weekend !



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5fLA9byUdQ

takeoff 1 (982x654).jpg

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: to Kolb/Jabiru guys...

Happy new year to all and have a safe weekend !



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5fLA9byUdQ





 Morning Folks:



Glad you got your engine problem corrected.  The Jabiru sounded good.  Don't 

you have a two blade prop?  I like the sound of a two blade prop.  People 

used to tell me my Firestar with 447 and wooden two blade prop sounded 

almost like a "real airplane."



You were getting a little frisky on the throttle during taxi after landing. 





You are flying out of Houghton Lake State?  Landed there in 2003, on the way 

to Gaylord, home of my Army helicopter Instructor Pilot who soloed me in 

1968.  Then on to St Ignace to meet John Williamson and fly up to Sault 

Saint Marie and west along the south shore of Lake Superior.  Eventually, we 

wound up at Scott Trask's in Iron Mountain, MI, where we met Rick Neilsen 

and Bill (has a FS), before we all flew down to Oshkosh.  If I remember 

correctly, Houghton was grass.



Longing to get some decent weather and get back on the cross country trail 

again soon.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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