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Cold weather oil woes

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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

I had a report of an oil filter element rupture in a CJ-6. This case is similar to another a few years back when a Yak lost it's oil cooler due to cold oil and high pressures. Common problem: cold oil and damage soon after start up.



In both cases, only assumptions can be made about the triggering event. In This case, the aircraft had been flown for a few years with my system installed and had been flown in even colder weather (34 degrees at the time of failure). Multi-weight oil was used and the engine was pre-heated, but the oil cooler was not heated first. The filter element was sourced locally and was cross-referenced to the one I specify. A few years ago the oil cooler was overhauled by a respected shop. The filter base has a 15psi bypass.



The only damage found to date was the base of the element distending and allowing oil to puke.



What can an operator do? The first thing is to install pre-heat pads on the oil cooler as well as the gearbox sump and oil tank in addition to pre-heating the engine.



Always warm up slowly and completely, monitoring In and Out temps.



Regardless of whose system is installed, most filter bases come with 1/4" taps on both In/Out ends. Install pressure gauges or a differential sensor. These should be monitored during warm-up.



Craig Payne

threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

At the risk of starting a run away conversation.....  I'd like to find out from our pilot community, their cold weather practice..  I haven't been able to find anything in the manuals on this subject.

  

 Scenario: Cold morning, engine running, ready for engine run up, oil temps below engine run up minimums... Question, what are you referencing?  Engine Inlet oil temps or engine outlet oil temps?

  

 I have seen it done both ways and wanted to take an informal survey and maybe gain some round engine knowledge..



 Larry Pine

               [quote][b]

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

All is written in the regular documentation.

Plus the best practice of warming all, oil and cylinder

Not mentioning injections.....

There is cold and very cold weather.....not the same

Cold is below 5 celsius and above 0

Very cold is under 0 down to minus a lot.

I flew in minus 25 degree Celsius below zero in Hungary and Germany. Plane behaved perfectly fine and started at once after warming only with warm air.



Didier Blouzard+33(0)6 2424 3672

Le 18 janv. 2011 Ã  23:35, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> a Ã©crit :



[quote]At the risk of starting a run away conversation.....  I'd like to find out from our pilot community, their cold weather practice..  I haven't been able to find anything in the manuals on this subject.

  

 Scenario: Cold morning, engine running, ready for engine run up, oil temps below engine run up minimums... Question, what are you referencing?  Engine Inlet oil temps or engine outlet oil temps?

  

 I have seen it done both ways and wanted to take an informal survey and maybe gain some round engine knowledge..



 Larry Pine

                	  Quote: 	
		  



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ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

===================================

ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

You must be referring to the Yak MM.  I have a CJ, procedures would most likely be identical but I don't have a Yak MM...  So do share.  Does the manual call out inlet temps to be monitored or outlet?



Larry Pine

--- On Tue, 1/18/11, Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Cold weather oil woes

To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 4:03 PM



All is written in the regular documentation.

Plus the best practice of warming all, oil and cylinder

Not  mentioning injections.....

There is cold and very cold weather....not the same

Cold is below 5 celsius and above 0

Very cold is under 0 down to minus a lot.

I flew in minus 25 degree Celsius below zero in Hungary and Germany. Plane behaved perfectly fine and started at once after warming only with warm air.



Didier Blouzard+33(0)6 2424 3672

Le 18 janv. 2011 à 23:35, Larry Pine <[url=/mc/compose?to=threein60(at)yahoo.com]threein60(at)yahoo.com[/url]> a écrit :



 	  Quote: 	
		  At the risk of starting a run away conversation.....  I'd like to find out from our pilot community, their cold weather practice..  I haven't been able to find  anything in the manuals on this subject.

  

 Scenario: Cold morning, engine running, ready for engine run up, oil temps below engine run up minimums... Question, what are you referencing?  Engine Inlet oil temps or engine outlet oil temps?

  

 I have seen it done both ways and wanted to take an informal survey and maybe gain some round engine knowledge..



 Larry Pine

                	  Quote: 	
		  ==========ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List==========ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com==========http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=================================== 	


	


	


         [quote][b]

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

As I recall in my stock yak-55,  the gauge reads oil inlet temp ...



+--

discrab(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

I'm working on putting a Wolf Filter on as we speak, in my 55M. The temp sensor is downstream of the oil tank and upstream of the "filter" (Russian for the large screen on the firewall) and way upstream of the oil pump.

Respectfully

Rick b

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Ah  ... so that is more like 'output' side then ...  OK thanks!  



Now I know why I have been told you really do not want to run the engine with the oil temp in the red .... boy on hot days in central California it doesn't take long to get it to the red on climb outs ...



+--

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Cold weather oil woes

For what's it worth:



My system, which may or may not have been Craig's (on the aircraft when I bought it) but looked identical, failed in cold weather as well. My oil tank and sump was heated, the oil cooler was not. When the cold oil came out of the cooler and hit the filter housing it blew shearing the shaft the filter threads on to. 



The problem with using systems like this, especially in cold wx, is that they are not designed for aircraft and the oils we use. They are meant to be used as hydraulic oil filters.



The filter housing bypass  is too small for the volume and viscosity of the oil trying to pass through (if needed) and I suspect the filter construction and size is not up to the task either.



I am thankful this happened on the ground.



I've since installed a ADC spin on system designed for radial engine aircraft (very large bypass) and have placed a strip heater on my oil cooler. Additionally, I will not move the throttle past 1200 rpm in cold weather until I have 20C.



Even better...I now have a heated hangar....

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Keith, et al:

You bring up a number of points that I have commented on previously, 

apparently to little avail.



First let me say I agree with your choice of filter systems.

I install only approved radial engine oil filter systems.  My preference is 

the original ADC screen type but the spin-on is fine. Have also installed 

the Air Tractor spin-on which is also approved for the R985/R1340, etc.

The use of the term "radial" is not the defining description of these 

aircraft approved systems. A better one may be a DRY SUMP engine of high oil 

flow with an oil scavange pump system.  Of course all radials fit this 

description but so do certain inline types.



There is no point in installing an external oil filter unless it is located 

to filter oil immediately on leaving the engine.



Scavange pump pressure is NOT regulated by a relief valve.  Initial running 

with very cold oil could produce pressures in excess of 300 psi.

Many cold weather radial installations utilize a "surge" valve to dump oil 

directly to the tank. On the R1340/Harvard installation this opens at 85psi. 

This is in addition to the normal oil cooler by-pass valve.



The hydraulic system, super micron, filters that some are using on their 

engines have a miniscule capacity by-pass that opens at 15 psi.  That 

basically means that the by-pass probably spends as much time open as 

closed.

Even with an open by-pass and cold oil there could be enough pressure to 

collapse the filter.

IMHO they are a total waste of time and money and do not belong on an 

aircraft engine.



FWIW

Walt



---

Cliff.Coy

Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 46

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

And for all those who end up blowing up an oil cooler.... we've designed and installed a bolt on oil cooler conversion to a U.S. oil cooler......

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 20:32, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca (wlannon(at)persona.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca (wlannon(at)persona.ca)>

 

 Keith, et al:

 You bring up a number of points that I have commented on previously, apparently to little avail.

 

 First let me say I agree with your choice of filter systems.

 I install only approved radial engine oil filter systems.  My preference is the original ADC screen type but the spin-on is fine. Have also installed the Air Tractor spin-on which is also approved for the R985/R1340, etc.

  The use of the term "radial" is not the defining description of these aircraft approved systems. A better one may be a DRY SUMP engine of high oil flow with an oil scavange pump system.  Of course all radials fit this description but so do certain inline types.

  

 There is no point in installing an external oil filter unless it is located to filter oil immediately on leaving the engine.

 

 Scavange pump pressure is NOT regulated by a relief valve.  Initial running with very cold oil could produce pressures in excess of 300 psi.

 Many cold weather radial installations utilize a "surge" valve to dump oil directly to the tank. On the R1340/Harvard installation this opens at 85psi. This is in addition to the normal oil cooler by-pass valve.

  

 The hydraulic system, super micron, filters that some are using on their engines have a miniscule capacity by-pass that opens at 15 psi.  That basically means that the by-pass probably spends as much time open as closed.

  Even with an open by-pass and cold oil there could be enough pressure to collapse the filter.

 IMHO they are a total waste of time and money and do not belong on an aircraft engine.

 

 FWIW

 Walt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:27 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

I made an oil cooler pre-heater out of commonly available parts. I'll put up a picture when I get a chance.

On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:

[quote]And for all those who end up blowing up an oil cooler.... we've designed and installed a bolt on oil cooler conversion to a U.S. oil cooler......

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 20:32, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca (wlannon(at)persona.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca (wlannon(at)persona.ca)>

 

 Keith, et al:

 You bring up a number of points that I have commented on previously, apparently to little avail.

 

 First let me say I agree with your choice of filter systems.

 I install only approved radial engine oil filter systems.  My preference is the original ADC screen type but the spin-on is fine. Have also installed the Air Tractor spin-on which is also approved for the R985/R1340, etc.

  The use of the term "radial" is not the defining description of these aircraft approved systems. A better one may be a DRY SUMP engine of high oil flow with an oil scavange pump system.  Of course all radials fit this description but so do certain inline types.

  

 There is no point in installing an external oil filter unless it is located to filter oil immediately on leaving the engine.

 

 Scavange pump pressure is NOT regulated by a relief valve.  Initial running with very cold oil could produce pressures in excess of 300 psi.

 Many cold weather radial installations utilize a "surge" valve to dump oil directly to the tank. On the R1340/Harvard installation this opens at 85psi. This is in addition to the normal oil cooler by-pass valve.

  

 The hydraulic system, super micron, filters that some are using on their engines have a miniscule capacity by-pass that opens at 15 psi.  That basically means that the by-pass probably spends as much time open as closed.

  Even with an open by-pass and cold oil there could be enough pressure to collapse the filter.

 IMHO they are a total waste of time and money and do not belong on an aircraft engine.

 

 FWIW

 Walt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ---

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

OK engine experts, please  tell me if I'm missing something here, but I preheat my oil reservoir  with a heat pad five to six hours and warm the engine for several hours  with a forced air electric heater under one of Doug Sapp's spiffy engine  blankets until it's warm enough that the accessory section doesn't howl like a  cat in a fan belt on a cold morning.  I use a cold weather restrictor plate  over the front of the oil cooler.  I run the engine at 40% until everything  is at least in the yellow, but then watch for a drop in the oil temperature the  first time that indicates the oil cooler has released its cold oil before I do a  run up.  I also run 25W-60 oil.  Am I safe in not preheating the oil  cooler as well if I know that the cooler has been purged of cold oil before  flight?  

       On a similar note,  I've flown at high altitudes in the winter in the Rockies that were likely  below zero requiring the gills to be nearly full closed and the oil cooler  closed completely to keep everything in the green (and what heat the cabin  heater could provide).  As long as the CHT and oil temp stays in the green  it should be circulating oil through the cooler often enough to prevent an over  pressure from thickened cold oil.  Any recommendations?

  

 Thanks,

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

  

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Install the oil cooler RU fenistrated panel(forgot what it's real name is) on the front side of the cooler. It resricts air flow though the front of the cooler. If you do not have  that put a couple of strips of NASCAR duck tape in two 1-11/2 in strips along and parallel to the capillary tubes in the cooler. That is done if you(I'm) running on the low end of the green arch in the dead of winter.

Doc

Sent from my iPad



On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:37 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)> wrote:



[quote]       OK engine experts, please  tell me if I'm missing something here, but I preheat my oil reservoir  with a heat pad five to six hours and warm the engine for several hours  with a forced air electric heater under one of Doug Sapp's spiffy engine  blankets until it's warm enough that the accessory section doesn't howl like a  cat in a fan belt on a cold morning.  I use a cold weather restrictor plate  over the front of the oil cooler.  I run the engine at 40% until everything  is at least in the yellow, but then watch for a drop in the oil temperature the  first time that indicates the oil cooler has released its cold oil before I do a  run up.  I also run 25W-60 oil.  Am I safe in not preheating the oil  cooler as well if I know that the cooler has been purged of cold oil before  flight?  

       On a similar note,  I've flown at high altitudes in the winter in the Rockies that were likely  below zero requiring the gills to be nearly full closed and the oil cooler  closed completely to keep everything in the green (and what heat the cabin  heater could provide).  As long as the CHT and oil temp stays in the green  it should be circulating oil through the cooler often enough to prevent an over  pressure from thickened cold oil.  Any recommendations?

  

 Thanks,

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

  

 [quote]   ---

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Doc,

     I did the tape trick until  fellow Colorado YAKPak type friend Dale made me a nice copy of an original  Russki type restrictor.

  

 Mark

  

 [quote]   ---

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Sounds just right to me.  The only thing I  might add is cycle the prop occasionally.

  

 Walt

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: Cold weather oil woes

Copy. Then you are uptown!

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jan 20, 2011, at 10:52 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)> wrote:



[quote]  Doc,

     I did the tape trick until  fellow Colorado YAKPak type friend Dale made me a nice copy of an original  Russki type restrictor.

  

 Mark

  

 [quote]   ---

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