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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. Very nose heavy on the first flight so I adjusted the horizontal stab down one hole for the second two. Still nose heavy so I will take them down to the bottom hole if I fly it again tonight. Didn't try the flaps or do anything but take it off, around the pattern and full stop landings. So now I've flown a IIIX. Pretty Cool!
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Mike Welch
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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Rick,
Congrads on the flight. Do you recall exactly where the weight and balance came
in at?
I'll be calculating my W&B very, very soon. I was just wondering if a more
rearward balance point would have helped with the heavy nose on Ken's plane
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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The CG is at 22.63" (min 16.50, max 23.10) or 34.28%. I adjusted the horizontal stabilizer to the lowest position and it had no more effect than the middle hole, which was an improvement from having it in the top hole. I'm going to adjust the flaps and ailerons up a turn at a time and see how far I have to go to trim it. When I made the last flight I used half flaps for landing and it didn't make any difference, or at most very little, so I think I'll be on the right track with the flaps and ailerons.
Rick
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick,
Congrads on the flight. Do you recall exactly where the weight and balance came
in at?
I'll be calculating my W&B very, very soon. I was just wondering if a more
rearward balance point would have helped with the heavy nose on Ken's plane.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:05:05 -0500
Subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. Very nose heavy on the first flight so I adjusted the horizontal stab down one hole for the second two. Still nose heavy so I will take them down to the bottom hole if I fly it again tonight. Didn't try the flaps or do anything but take it off, around the pattern and full stop landings. So now I've flown a IIIX. Pretty Cool!
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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Rick, Nose heavy means the plane is a lawn dart if I let go of the stick. I made one last flight just before dusk and I put each horizontal stabilizer down to the last, bottom, hole in the bracket. Still dived, even with trim full aft.
Putting on half flaps didn't worsen how it felt so I landed it that way.
Calculated CG with me in the pilot's seat is at 34.3% (22.63").
My plan is to adjust ailerons and flaps up a turn at a time and see if that helps.
Rick
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 7:46 AM, <NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com (NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick
When you say the plane is nose heavy are you saying that you are running out of up elevator? Is the trim system adjusted properly?
I had a nose heavy situation on a early high mount of my redrive VW when under full power with a passenger (near forward CG). There were situations where I would run out of up elevator. This was dangerous but it was due to a very high thrust line that I assume you don't have.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On , Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The CG is at 22.63" (min 16.50, max 23.10) or 34.28%. I adjusted the horizontal stabilizer to the lowest position and it had no more effect than the middle hole, which was an improvement from having it in the top hole. I'm going to adjust the flaps and ailerons up a turn at a time and see how far I have to go to trim it. When I made the last flight I used half flaps for landing and it didn't make any difference, or at most very little, so I think I'll be on the right track with the flaps and ailerons.
>
|
| Quote: |
Rick,
Congrads on the flight. Do you recall exactly where the weight and balance came
in at?
I'll be calculating my W&B very, very soon. I was just wondering if a more
>
|
| Quote: | rearward balance point would have helped with the heavy nose on Ken's plane.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:05:05 -0500
> Subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX
|
| Quote: |
After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. Very nose heavy on the first flight so I adjusted the horizontal stab down one hole for the second two. Still nose heavy so I will take them down to the bottom hole if I fly it again tonight. Didn't try the flaps or do anything but take it off, around the pattern and full stop landings.
> So now I've flown a IIIX. Pretty Cool!
|
| Quote: |
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
|
| Quote: |
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
>
|
| Quote: |
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
|
| Quote: |
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
>
|
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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_________________
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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True flight balance can be shown at about 65mph. At higher speeds aerodynamic forces on that broad windshieldstart showing up.
It does on my hybrid MkIII too.
BB
On 23, May 2011, at 8:46 AM, NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com (NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com) wrote:
[quote]Rick
When you say the plane is nose heavy are you saying that you are running out of up elevator? Is the trim system adjusted properly?
I had a nose heavy situation on a early high mount of my redrive VW when under full power with a passenger (near forward CG). There were situations where I would run out of up elevator. This was dangerous but it was due to a very high thrust line that I assume you don't have.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On , Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The CG is at 22.63" (min 16.50, max 23.10) or 34.28%. I adjusted the horizontal stabilizer to the lowest position and it had no more effect than the middle hole, which was an improvement from having it in the top hole. I'm going to adjust the flaps and ailerons up a turn at a time and see how far I have to go to trim it. When I made the last flight I used half flaps for landing and it didn't make any difference, or at most very little, so I think I'll be on the right track with the flaps and ailerons.
Rick
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Mike Welch mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Rick,
Congrads on the flight. Do you recall exactly where the weight and balance came
in at?
I'll be calculating my W&B very, very soon. I was just wondering if a more
rearward balance point would have helped with the heavy nose on Ken's plane.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:05:05 -0500
Subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. Very nose heavy on the first flight so I adjusted the horizontal stab down one hole for the second two. Still nose heavy so I will take them down to the bottom hole if I fly it again tonight. Didn't try the flaps or do anything but take it off, around the pattern and full stop landings.
So now I've flown a IIIX. Pretty Cool!
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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by0ung(at)q.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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Rick, Nose heavy means the plane is a lawn dart if I let go of the stick. I made one last flight just before dusk and I put each horizontal stabilizer down to the last, bottom, hole in the bracket. Still dived, even with trim full aft.
Putting on half flaps didn't worsen how it felt so I landed it that way. ,
Calculated CG with me in the pilot's seat is at 34.3% (22.63").
My plan is to adjust ailerons and flaps up a turn at a time and see if that helps.
Rick
how is the trim set up? is there a trim tab? if so which way is it bent? or kolbs spring assist that raises the elevators? bungee cord? is the wing incidence at the correct angle in reference to the stabilizers?
boyd
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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I took it out for another flight before breakfast after I adjusted flaps and ailerons. Seems a little better, but still needs more. Off to test again.
Rick
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:33 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | True flight balance can be shown at about 65mph. At higher speeds aerodynamic forces on that broad windshield start showing up.
It does on my hybrid MkIII too.
BB
On 23, May 2011, at 8:46 AM, NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com (NeilsenRM(at)gmail.com) wrote:
| Quote: |
Rick
When you say the plane is nose heavy are you saying that you are running out of up elevator? Is the trim system adjusted properly?
I had a nose heavy situation on a early high mount of my redrive VW when under full power with a passenger (near forward CG). There were situations where I would run out of up elevator. This was dangerous but it was due to a very high thrust line that I assume you don't have.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On , Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The CG is at 22.63" (min 16.50, max 23.10) or 34.28%. I adjusted the horizontal stabilizer to the lowest position and it had no more effect than the middle hole, which was an improvement from having it in the top hole. I'm going to adjust the flaps and ailerons up a turn at a time and see how far I have to go to trim it. When I made the last flight I used half flaps for landing and it didn't make any difference, or at most very little, so I think I'll be on the right track with the flaps and ailerons.
>
|
| Quote: |
Rick,
Congrads on the flight. Do you recall exactly where the weight and balance came
in at?
I'll be calculating my W&B very, very soon. I was just wondering if a more
>
|
| Quote: | rearward balance point would have helped with the heavy nose on Ken's plane.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:05:05 -0500
> Subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX
|
| Quote: |
After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. Very nose heavy on the first flight so I adjusted the horizontal stab down one hole for the second two. Still nose heavy so I will take them down to the bottom hole if I fly it again tonight. Didn't try the flaps or do anything but take it off, around the pattern and full stop landings.
> So now I've flown a IIIX. Pretty Cool!
|
| Quote: |
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
|
| Quote: |
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
>
|
| Quote: |
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
>
|
|
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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Jimmy Young
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: Re: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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| Quote: | | After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening. |
Rick,
Just curious, what work was done to this Xtra, and how well does the 582 (I assume it's a 582) power the Xtra around?
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Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700 |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:39 am Post subject: First flight for Ken Holles Mk IIIX |
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Jimmy, I'll try to keep it to a novella. The leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer was damaged and had to be replaced and the stab recovered. The front of the left stabilizer was mounted almost a half inch higher than the right and had to be lowered. The tail wires were slack and poorly made, I made new. The builder had strung the lower wires to the tail wheel bolt instead of its own bolt in the rudder post. The rudder hit the left elevator but had 6" of clearance on the right. The engine uses an "E" gearbox so it had been raised up almost 4" for clearance between the starter and the rear spar carry through. I made a new engine mount plate to move the engine back 5/8". The engine is now 5/16" lower than called out for the 618 with the "E" gearbox in the plans for the IIIC.
The forward plates of the main spar carry through on the fuselage were wallowed out to greater than 3/8" X 5/16" so I worked them out to be straight with the hole in the rear plates and enlarged them to take a 3/8" bolt. I still have to make inserts for the forward holes so the bolt will have 100% contact.
I replaced the Rotax radiators, whose mount was broken, with a Honda Sabre radiator.
There were a half dozen or more smaller issues and fabric patches but that covers the majors.
After talking with Bryan Melbourne yesterday about the incidence angles of the wings and tail, I was convinced that I need to weld up the holes in the spar tabs on the wings and redrill to bring the wing AOI down almost a degree. He has seen the "lawn dart syndrome" before caused by that wide platypus nose. I can see the nose cone caving in as speed comes up in level flight, so I believe Bryan is correct.
As it stands, performance is nothing like my IIIC. My C leaps off the ground with half flaps and climbs like the proverbial homesick angel. I have to horse the X off the ground after a long take off roll and it climbs very slowly. I've not reached pattern altitude on any circuit, but I haven't kept climbing all the way to abeam the runway threshold, either. I also haven't pushed it. While it's nose heavy I don't want to get anywhere near a stall. Although I've been trying to roll it on when landing I've landed tailwheel first 4 out of 6 times. Not hard, but I can feel it. The landing roll is long, too. When I lowered the stabs to their lowest position I felt confident enough to try a notch of flaps on approach. It helped a little, but until the pitch stability is fixed I won't use them again.
My opinion is that this is a good aircraft that was very poorly built. Fortunately it can all be fixed.
Rick Girard
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>
> After months of work I took Ken's IIIX around the pattern three times this evening.
Rick,
Just curious, what work was done to this Xtra, and how well does the 582 (I assume it's a 582) power the Xtra around?
--------
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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