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914 Prop Question

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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:37 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistically I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. 

Thanks

Reg

Tony Renshaw

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:09 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tony,

I am not an expert. However, I  believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations.

Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here.

I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster.

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 

for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base 

yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of  a short grass 

strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is 

welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa 

is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a 

fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end 

of the range..

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

watervet(at)mweb.co.za
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:11 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tony,



I have a 914 with the Airmaster Prop and the versatility and performance is exceptional - it is able to absorb almost any change of power setting and I seriously doubt a fixed pitch will be able to handle the additional 15hp boost at 115% - you will likely end up with an rpm overspeed - in which case stay with the 912S

Mike

On 27 Aug 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Joyce wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of  a short grass strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end of the range..

 Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

 ---

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Thanks Tim,

Getting locked out might have the up side in that I might finish my Europa !!

TR

On 27/08/2011, at 6:08 PM, Tim Ward wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Tony,

 I am not an expert. However, I  believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations.

 Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here.

 I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster.

 .

 Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much.

 Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out!

 Cheers,

 Tim

 Tim Ward

 12 Waiwetu Street

 Fendalton,

 Christchurch,  8052

 New Zealand.

 ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

 Ph 64 3 3515166

 Mob 0210640221

 On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplisticall!

 y !

> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. 

> Thanks

> Reg

> Tony Renshaw

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Hi Tony,



You wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to  

 comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could  

 work on a 914.


	


I first met Catto (that would be Craig, not "Bob") in the mid-70s when  

he was a 15 yr. old kid carving props in his parents' garage...rather  

audacious stuff...I think I've seen the recent videos to which you  

refer...as you know, he now has an impressive record for designing and  

building specialty props for a broad spectrum of aircraft and uses.



Glenn Crowder (on the europa list) is very happy w/ his Catto on his  

125 hp Sube-powered Classic which he flies out of Golden, CO ((at)5000+  

ASL)...Glenn can compare performance w/ (I believe) his in-flight  

adjustable NSI prop.



If you can track down the CAFE test data done on Kim Prout's Classic  

and forward it to Catto, perhaps that info could guide Catto to be  

able to estimate what he can do in the way of a FP prop for your  

XS...he, of course, has his data from Glenn's prop as well.



As others have opined, matching the Europa to a FP prop is somewhat  

counter intuitive, but depending upon your operational requirements, I  

suspect it might work for you.



Fred

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

You can see the CAFE report here:



http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_cafe_apr/Europa%20APR.pdf

Best regards,



Rob Housman

Irvine, California

Europa XS

Rotax 914

S/N A070

Airframe complete

Avionics soon

--

rlindsa2(at)san.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

About the turn of the century the Europa Florida US office tested various 

engine/prop combinations.  One conclusion was that the 914 fixed prop 

combination had a signicant issue at higher altitudes.  The 914 having a 

critical altitude of 16Kft resulted in needing to reduce throttle setting to 

prevent prop overspeed as one climbed into the teens.  It seems to me that 

if you are not going to go high or don't have density altitude problems, you 

are better off with a 912.

Bob Lindsay

914/Whirlwind XS Monowheel



---

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but how about installing a simple

fixed pitch first and then upgrading to a constant speed? My feeling

is that the chances of ground loops or prop strikes are greater during

the first few months of flying. I recall reading about a landing gear

failure while taxiing.



On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Mike Toft <watervet(at)mweb.co.za> wrote:

[quote] 



 Tony,



 I have a 914 with the Airmaster Prop and the versatility and performance is exceptional - it is able to absorb almost any change of power setting and I seriously doubt a fixed pitch will be able to handle the additional 15hp boost at 115% - you will likely end up with an rpm overspeed - in which case stay with the 912S

 Mike

 On 27 Aug 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Joyce wrote:



> 

>

> Tim, I wouldn't be without my wobbly prop - would rather trade in the 914 for a 912S if pressed to the choice. You may have a long runway to base yourself at but it's likely you will want to get in/out of  a short grass strip or a shortish, high, hot runway where every bit of performance is welcome. There is also the consideration that the speed range of the Europa is so wide (stall speed less than a third of maximum cruise speed) that a fixed pitch prop inevitably seriously cramps performance at one or other end of the range..

> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

> ---

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tony, One benefit of a VP prop that I don't believe has been mentioned but 

which reference to ground looping brings to mind is that in fine pitch the 

slowing down effect of the idling prop is very noticeably greater than in 

coarse pitch. If you are trying to glide somewhere and the prop pitch change 

system still works, fine pitch is a great asset whereas to stop in a short 

distance you definitely want it in fine. On T/Off  fine pitch also takes you 

very quickl;y through the dodgy steering phase if you have a mono. Clearly a 

fixed pitch prop is going to miss out somewhat on both counts.  So I guess 

you are less likely to lose control on the ground and end up ground looping 

if you have a VP/CS prop.

             Incidentally have you looked at the list of flying planes on 

the Europa Club website where engines & props are listed for pretty much 

every flying Europa?

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Graeme



There are two LAA standard Mod to fit an oil thermostat to a 912.  You will

find this under Rotax 9xx mods rather than under Europa.  SM12808 is a

little more expensive.  Let me know if you have any questions. 



I have attached a copy for you.

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

SM12793_Thermostatic_Oil_Valve.pdf

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SM12808_Thermostatic_Oil_Valve2.pdf

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tony

I hear that flying transport is a more civilsed way to earn a living. A friend of mine recently resigned from LH seat 747 and is planning to do just that. Don't buy your prop until you are nearer needing it, same with instrumentation/avionics. They are getting better steadily, if you buy now you will be owning second best by the time you fly (imho btw!)

Graham

From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent:  Saturday, 27 August, 2011 15:57:38

Subject: Re: 914 Prop Question

--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>

Thanks Tim,

Getting locked out might have the up side in that I might finish my Europa !!

TR

On 27/08/2011, at 6:08 PM, Tim Ward wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)>

 Tony,

 I am not an expert. However, I  believe, if you opt for the 914 Rotax then a constant speed propeller would be appropriate. Simply to utilize the extra power in the most efficient way allows you to get out of difficult situations.

 Airmaster propeller system is just a delight to use and  such a reassurance in the countryside we fly over here.

 I know it comes from this side of the Tasman however you will be very pleased with the ingenuity and simplicity of the Airmaster.

 .

 Hope all is well with you. Now flying the big one from the left seat I hear. I spent 14 years from the right seat and enjoyed it very much.

 Good luck on the industrial side, don't get locked out!

 Cheers,

 Tim

 Tim Ward

 12 Waiwetu Street

 Fendalton,

 Christchurch,  8052

 New Zealand.

 ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)

 Ph 64 3 3515166

 Mob 0210640221

 On 27/08/2011, at 7:34 PM, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>  wrote:

> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>

> 

> Its been a long while since I've had to think much about props. In truth I still have a lot of building to go before I have to worry again. I'm nevertheless wondering if more learned people would care to comment on whether a fixed pitch prop, maybe a Catto prop, could work on a 914. I know the pitch of the prop would need to be determined to suit the style of flying I prefer, and lets say that is to go as fast as my engine/airframe combination will allow, at 75% power. To that end I reckon my takeoff performance will be compromised, but recent video of Bob Catto speaking makes me believe it might only be in the order of a couple of hundred feet. If I can deal with that, well what other limitations are there that haven't come to mind  yet? Does anyone know of a builder of anything that has strapped a fixed pitch prop to a 914? I don't and thats why I'm asking. There might be a bunch, I just don't know them. Also, there might be some issues at altitude, although simplistical!

 l!

 	  Quote: 	
		   y !

> I believe the prop works in an IAS environment so maybe it doesn't matter. I think there is probably even issues of aerodynamics that might be wrong with that last statement, so I'm happy to read whatever someone can contribute. 

> Thanks

> Reg

> Tony Renshaw

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

w.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matroni   --> http://ww=======================

 [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: 914 Prop Question

On Aug 27, 2011, at 3:33 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I hear that flying transport is a more civilsed way to earn a living. 	




Graham...translation needed for (some of) the Yanks...What indeed is "flying transport"?

Would that be the art of "transporting"?...Is this related to "trainspotting"?

Fred



 [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:24 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Fred,

apologies, I've done it again! I meant flying left hand seat cargo aircraft as opposed to carrying passengers.

Graham



From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 28 August, 2011 5:00:56

Subject: Re: 914 Prop Question

On Aug 27, 2011, at 3:33 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I hear that flying transport is a more civilsed way to earn a living. 	




Graham...translation needed for (some of) the Yanks...What indeed is "flying transport"?

Would that be the art of "transporting"?...Is this related to "trainspotting"?

Fred



 [quote]ht; http://www.matronics.com/contrib===============


[b]

erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: 914 Prop Question

Tony,

 

Regarding flying behind a fixed pitch prop and a 914, I did just that for a couple of  years.  As others have mentioned their are a number of benefits to an in-flight adjustable or constant speed prop.  Given that I live in the desert southwest (Las Vegas, NV) I purchased the 914 for the express purpose of flying high and I must say I was in fact able to do just that with fixed pitch prop, however, at much slower speeds and poorer fuel economy  than with the NSI prop I currently have.  As you climb you will find that one has to continuously throttle back to avoid over-speeding the engine.  The higher you go the less power you are able to transfer to the prop and the less efficient it becomes; resulting in a double hit in performance.  Installing the NSI was the single biggest performance improvement I have made to the plane, and it is by no means an ideal prop.  I would never consider going back to a fixed pitch prop. Just my two cents.

 

Here is a snap shot of a leg from my return trip from Oshkosh: 

163 KTAS, 124 KIAS , 5 gal/hr fuel flow, 5,000 rpm, 27.7 in MP, 14,300 Pressure Alt, 5 deg C OAT, (16,384 density alt). 

 

BTW, this was the longest leg I have ever flown in the Europa: 5.3 hrs, 745 nautical miles, 150 KTS ground speed in cruise, 27.3 gallons. 

If my math is correct the above works out to 35 statute miles/gal with a ground speed of 173 M.P.H. Not too shabby for a headwind.  My ground speed was even more impressive on the way out OSH.  With a tail wind it was over 210 M.P.H at times burning the same 5 gal/hr.    I will take that over driving a car any day!

 

Kind regards,

 

Erich Trombley

N28ET Classic Mono 914

  



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