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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar |
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One other thing that might be added to this consideration is cold starting. For those of us who start engines a lot in "cool" conditions it has been long a consideration that more harm occures to engines during start than in many hours of operation. Unless you are always going to preheat to operating temperatures, this is always a consideration. Multigrade oil tends to be nicer to the engine on start up.
Jabiru does not say anything about this but with it's closer tolerances, the situation may be even more applicable.
For a very non scientific measure, I have used the Elite oil almost since it first appeared. It was used in multiple Lycoming engines and now in the Jabiru. At least in many years of Lycoming use, there was never a premature failure of an engine part while using it. One Lycoming was (in a PA24-260) was finally retired at 2500 hours in perfect like new operating condition.
On 09/09/2011 1:56 AM, James, Clive R wrote: | Quote: | v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Never heard of the Phillips oil in UK so did some surfing, Checkout a test on the Phillips oil against Exxons version.
http://www.eliteavoil.co.uk/wear.pdf
Results to be taken with a pinch of salt of course.
Regards, Clive
From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com) [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)] On Behalf Of Brian Anderson
Sent: 08 September 2011 22:06
To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar
Yesterday I participated in the EAA sponsored Webinar - - All about Oil. It was an on-line presentation by Mike Busch. This guy regularly writes articles for the EAA Sport Aviation magazine.
The presentation was great. Mike is very knowledgeable and explains things simply and clearly.
Some very interesting facts emerged.
1. Certified engines are required to demonstrate that the will operate satisfactorily with HALF the recommended quantity of oil. Note - - not half way between any marks - - half the total quantity. If you fill to the top mark on the dipstick it is quite normal for oil to be expelled, and the engine will naturally find its own level. Mike recommends to all his clients that they fill with approximately 2/3 the recommended quantity of oil and run the engine at that level.
It would be easy to check the volume of oil in the Jabiru engine at the lower dipstick mark, and compare that with the quantity of oil that Jabiru recommends.
2. Mike has found no documented evidence that clearly demonstrates that the straight 100 [or 80] grade oil is better for running in an engine, than the monogrades W100, or W100 plus.
3. A multigrade oil is made starting with regular mineral oil [which becomes less viscous as temperatures rise] at a viscosity of say 15, and adding Viscosity Improvers, which are synthetic, and which increase in viscosity as temperatures rise. By adjusting the proportion and chemistry of the VI the desired multigrade range can be achieved. However, this is really only helpful if you have a problem with the viscosity of the oil at cold ambient starting temperatures.
4. He actively recommends NOT to use a multigrade with synthetic, for example Aeroshell 15W-50. This is 50% synthetic. At least, this is true for engines using leaded fuel. The synthetic oil is not good at scavenging lead and other residues from the engine. Furthermore it is a deal more expensive. On the other hand Phillips X/C 20W-50 is a straight mineral oil with only the VI added, so is OK if you need the lower viscosity at low temperatures.
5. In an aircraft engine the most fundamental issue is corrosion prevention, rather than wear prevention. Mineral oil is far better at this than synthetic. Do not compare the requirements of a modern car engine [temperature closely controlled, tight clearances, higher RPM, unleaded fuel, etc] with an aircraft engine. The oil requirements are fundamentally different.
I found the whole presentation very interesting and helpful.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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aprazer
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: Re: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar |
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Greetings from Idaho
Thanks for the update on the oil webinar - sorry that I missed it.
I did not realize that Exon had an aviation oil.
Good article in the June 2011 Light Plane Maintenance publication "Aircraft Oil - What You Need to Know".
Here is the summary: "There is no magic oil or magic bullet that will guarantee a full TBO run, especially in an infrequently flown engine. In spite of all claims, nothing beats any good aviation oil and regular oil changes, bolstered by regular oil analysis and filter cutting or screen inspections. Fly as often as possible, but at least every three weeks".
On the other point, here in Idaho, the best flying time of the year is in the winter! It gets cold though - Stanley, Idaho (less than an hour flight from my home airport) is reported to be the coldest spot in the nation, time after time.
Cold starts are murder on engines - even your automotive engines. Best recommendation is to heat the engine before starting. Lots of ways to do it. Any and all methods are time consuming though, but pay off at TBO.
Many local pilots run their engines over TBO several hundred hours.
That' my 2-bits worth and I'll stand by it!
Mack
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar |
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Brian:
You got a few errors there...
Item 1:
Four cylinder engines such as Lycomming and Continental are required to run with as little as 2 quarts of oil while keeping the temps in the Green for the entire fuel quantity on a certified GA.
Item 2:
STRAIGHT is the same as MONO.
fyi W stands for WINTER
The PLUS is the extra anti corrosion inhibitors.
There is no viscosity difference between 100 or W100 or W100 PLUS. They are all 50 weight. Same is true for 80 or W80 or W80 PLUS. They are all 40 weight. They are single weight oils.
Item 3:
There is NO MINERAL OIL any more.
Hasn't been for years.
The name is still used because of popularity.
It is like Kleenex for a Tissue.
"Mineral" refers to NON - AD oils.
Let me throw a "Loaded Question" out to the group:
What is the FIRST purpose of OIL?
aka [hint] Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Second question:
What is the first advantage of Synthetic Oils?
Third question:
Why did 100% Synthetic Oil fail?
[See Second Question]
As far as testing goes... The accepted standard is NOT the engine, but the THREE BALL TEST. Exxon Elite is GREAT for corrosion protection. That is really their claim to fame. Many other oils test the same as Exxon for Load and COF.
Barry
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 1:56 AM, James, Clive R <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com (clive.james(at)uk.bp.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Never heard of the Phillips oil in UK so did some surfing, Checkout a test on the Phillips oil against Exxons version.
http://www.eliteavoil.co.uk/wear.pdf
Results to be taken with a pinch of salt of course.
Regards, Clive
From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com) [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)] On Behalf Of Brian Anderson
Sent: 08 September 2011 22:06
To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar
Yesterday I participated in the EAA sponsored Webinar - - All about Oil. It was an on-line presentation by Mike Busch. This guy regularly writes articles for the EAA Sport Aviation magazine.
The presentation was great. Mike is very knowledgeable and explains things simply and clearly.
Some very interesting facts emerged.
1. Certified engines are required to demonstrate that the will operate satisfactorily with HALF the recommended quantity of oil. Note - - not half way between any marks - - half the total quantity. If you fill to the top mark on the dipstick it is quite normal for oil to be expelled, and the engine will naturally find its own level. Mike recommends to all his clients that they fill with approximately 2/3 the recommended quantity of oil and run the engine at that level.
It would be easy to check the volume of oil in the Jabiru engine at the lower dipstick mark, and compare that with the quantity of oil that Jabiru recommends.
2. Mike has found no documented evidence that clearly demonstrates that the straight 100 [or 80] grade oil is better for running in an engine, than the monogrades W100, or W100 plus.
3. A multigrade oil is made starting with regular mineral oil [which becomes less viscous as temperatures rise] at a viscosity of say 15, and adding Viscosity Improvers, which are synthetic, and which increase in viscosity as temperatures rise. By adjusting the proportion and chemistry of the VI the desired multigrade range can be achieved. However, this is really only helpful if you have a problem with the viscosity of the oil at cold ambient starting temperatures.
4. He actively recommends NOT to use a multigrade with synthetic, for example Aeroshell 15W-50. This is 50% synthetic. At least, this is true for engines using leaded fuel. The synthetic oil is not good at scavenging lead and other residues from the engine. Furthermore it is a deal more expensive. On the other hand Phillips X/C 20W-50 is a straight mineral oil with only the VI added, so is OK if you need the lower viscosity at low temperatures.
5. In an aircraft engine the most fundamental issue is corrosion prevention, rather than wear prevention. Mineral oil is far better at this than synthetic. Do not compare the requirements of a modern car engine [temperature closely controlled, tight clearances, higher RPM, unleaded fuel, etc] with an aircraft engine. The oil requirements are fundamentally different.
I found the whole presentation very interesting and helpful.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar |
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Ok, I'll bite....
First purpose of oil is to lubricate.....or it could be to cool
Second. Â Synthetics advantage is high temp stability
Third. Â Not sure of the context here, but I assume it is due to contamination or inability to scavenge TEL
How'd I go  ?
Marty
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:35 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Brian:
You got a few errors there...
Item 1:
Four cylinder engines such as Lycomming and Continental are required to run with as little as 2 quarts of oil while keeping the temps in the Green for the entire fuel quantity on a certified GA.
Item 2:
STRAIGHTÂ is the same as MONO.
fyi W stands for WINTER
The PLUS is the extra anti corrosion inhibitors.
There is no viscosity difference between 100 or W100 or W100 PLUS.  They are all 50 weight.  Same is true for 80 or W80 or W80 PLUS.  They are all 40 weight.  They are single weight oils.
Item 3:
There is NO MINERAL OIL any more.Â
Hasn't been for years.
The name is still used because of popularity. Â
It is like Kleenex for a Tissue. Â
"Mineral" refers to NON - AD oils.
Let me throw a "Loaded Question" out to the group:
What is the FIRST purpose of OIL?
aka [hint] Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Second question:
What is the first advantage of Synthetic Oils?
Third question:
Why did 100% Synthetic Oil fail?
[See Second Question]
As far as testing goes... The accepted standard is NOT the engine, but the THREE BALL TEST.  Exxon Elite is GREAT for corrosion protection.  That is really their claim to fame.  Many other oils test the same as Exxon for Load and COF.
Â
Barry
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 1:56 AM, James, Clive R <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com (clive.james(at)uk.bp.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Never heard of the Phillips oil in UK so did some surfing, Checkout a test on the Phillips oil against Exxons version.
Â
http://www.eliteavoil.co.uk/wear.pdf
Â
Results to be taken with a pinch of salt of course.
Â
Regards, Clive
Â
From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com) [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)] On Behalf Of Brian Anderson
Sent: 08 September 2011 22:06
To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com (jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar
Â
Â
Yesterday I participated in the EAA sponsored Webinar - - All about Oil. It was an on-line presentation by Mike Busch. This guy regularly writes articles for the EAA Sport Aviation magazine.
The presentation was great. Mike is very knowledgeable and explains things simply and clearly.
Some very interesting facts emerged.
1. Certified engines are required to demonstrate that the will operate satisfactorily with HALF the recommended quantity of oil. Note - - not half way between any marks - - half the total quantity. If you fill to the top mark on the dipstick it is quite normal for oil to be expelled, and the engine will naturally find its own level. Mike recommends to all his clients that they fill with approximately 2/3 the recommended quantity of oil and run the engine at that level.
It would be easy to check the volume of oil in the Jabiru engine at the lower dipstick mark, and compare that with the quantity of oil that Jabiru recommends.
2. Mike has found no documented evidence that clearly demonstrates that the straight 100 [or 80] grade oil is better for running in an engine, than the monogrades W100, or W100 plus.
3. A multigrade oil is made starting with regular mineral oil [which becomes less viscous as temperatures rise] at a viscosity of say 15, and adding Viscosity Improvers, which are synthetic, and which increase in viscosity as temperatures rise. By adjusting the proportion and chemistry of the VI the desired multigrade range can be achieved. However, this is really only helpful if you have a problem with the viscosity of the oil at cold ambient starting temperatures.
4. He actively recommends NOT to use a multigrade with synthetic, for example Aeroshell 15W-50. This is 50% synthetic. At least, this is true for engines using leaded fuel. The synthetic oil is not good at scavenging lead and other residues from the engine. Furthermore it is a deal more expensive. On the other hand Phillips X/C 20W-50 is a straight mineral oil with only the VI added, so is OK if you need the lower viscosity at low temperatures.
5. In an aircraft engine the most fundamental issue is corrosion prevention, rather than wear prevention. Mineral oil is far better at this than synthetic. Do not compare the requirements of a modern car engine [temperature closely controlled, tight clearances, higher RPM, unleaded fuel, etc] with an aircraft engine. The oil requirements are fundamentally different.
I found the whole presentation very interesting and helpful.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar |
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Martin:
Very good...
Which came first...
COOLING or LUBRICATION...
If you COOL you lower friction, if you lower friction you cool.
But, the proof of what it really does is in a simple thing like sharpening a
knife.
If you lubricate and reduce friction you will never get the knife sharp.
AND we are talking about sharpening with a hand stone. If you do not COOL
the edge will curl and it wil also loose the hardness of the steel. SO!
Which came first? COOLING!
Synthetics - Now that is a slippery subject. They can be very stable when
you talk single strand. But what they do best is lower friction. And
because they do that best they SUFFER in removing heat. One without the
other is doing nothing. Years before they were used in aircraft they were
used in model airplanes and cars. There was an increase in engine temps and
part failures. Experimenting took over and a BLEND of synthetics
and petroleum oils came to light. The best of both worlds. Even today a
50/50 blend is better for both lubrication and cooling.
So you can see from above the failure on 100% synthetics is their inability
to draw away heat - COOL.
Yes there are chemical action taking place within the oil. But, our biggest
problem is not the quality of heat reduction or friction reduction - It is
CORROSION - We just don't fly our planes enough. We have to protect the
engine from US!
Barry
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Martin Hone <aerobiz1(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Ok, I'll bite....
First purpose of oil is to lubricate.....or it could be to cool
Second. Synthetics advantage is high temp stability
Third. Not sure of the context here, but I assume it is due to
contamination or inability to scavenge TEL
How'd I go ?
Marty
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:35 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian:
>
> You got a few errors there...
>
> Item 1:
> Four cylinder engines such as Lycomming and Continental are required to
> run with as little as 2 quarts of oil while keeping the temps in the Green
> for the entire fuel quantity on a certified GA.
>
> Item 2:
> STRAIGHT is the same as MONO.
> fyi W stands for WINTER
> The PLUS is the extra anti corrosion inhibitors.
> There is no viscosity difference between 100 or W100 or W100 PLUS. They
> are all 50 weight. Same is true for 80 or W80 or W80 PLUS. They are all
> 40 weight. They are single weight oils.
>
> Item 3:
> There is NO MINERAL OIL any more.
> Hasn't been for years.
> The name is still used because of popularity.
> It is like Kleenex for a Tissue.
> "Mineral" refers to NON - AD oils.
>
> Let me throw a "Loaded Question" out to the group:
> What is the FIRST purpose of OIL?
> aka [hint] Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
>
> Second question:
> What is the first advantage of Synthetic Oils?
>
> Third question:
> Why did 100% Synthetic Oil fail?
> [See Second Question]
>
> As far as testing goes... The accepted standard is NOT the engine, but the
> THREE BALL TEST. Exxon Elite is GREAT for corrosion protection. That is
> really their claim to fame. Many other oils test the same as Exxon for Load
> and COF.
>
> Barry
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 1:56 AM, James, Clive R <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>wrote:
>
>> Never heard of the Phillips oil in UK so did some surfing, Checkout a
>> test on the Phillips oil against Exxons version. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://www.eliteavoil.co.uk/wear.pdf****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Results to be taken with a pinch of salt of course.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Regards, Clive****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com [mailto:
>> jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Brian Anderson
>> *Sent:* 08 September 2011 22:06
>> *To:* jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* [jabiruengines] All about Oil Webinar****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Yesterday I participated in the EAA sponsored Webinar - - All about Oil
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