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Cold Weather Starts

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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP



 [quote][b]

aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Bobby,



Sounds like you are running out of fuel that is delivered from the float chamber via the 'choke' or mixture enrichening system.

Remove the float bowl, find the little brass jet in the recess, remove, then drill it out to about 2mm, replace and try .....

 



You can also try turning out the idle mixture screw another one or one and a half turns richer...

Marty



On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 6:17 AM,  <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

 A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.Â  Is this a choke issue or ??

 Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP



  	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

nick(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Marty,  

   

2mm may work for you however the suggested size from the Jabba chat news letter is 1.2mm for a 3300 or 1mm for the 2200, no larger.  

   

For the 3300 the 1.2mm is also a 3/64” or #56.  

   

Thanks  

Nick  

   

--

aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Thanks Nick. Â Correcto Mondo.......please forgive the typo. Â Hope no -one has started drilling yet !



Marty



On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:06 AM, nick <nick(at)flylightning.net (nick(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:

 [quote]                   

Marty,  

Â   

2mm may work for you however the suggested size from the Jabba chat news letter is 1.2mm for a 3300 or 1mm for the 2200, no larger.  

Â   

For the 3300 the 1.2mm is also a 3/64â€ or #56.  

Â   

Thanks  

Nick  

Â   

--

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Mine does that in the cold. I figure it starts on the slug of fuel that is in the part that feeds the â€˜starting carburettorâ€™, it dies when it runs out as the starting carburettor itself isnâ€™t rich enough. The fuel that flows to the â€˜starting carburettorâ€™ (opened by the â€˜choke leverâ€™) is metered by the restrictor in the bottom of the chamber on the side of the carby bowl. There are those that suggest that that restrictor is made larger. I intend to do that as I think it part of the issue, Iâ€™m waiting till Â it gets cold enough so I can see the effect it has. Iâ€™m sure someone will chirp in with the recommended size to drill it out to. Iâ€™m going to go slowly with opening it out. 

When you pause the fuel in the slug chamber is replenished by gravity from the main part of the carby bowl. When the level comes back up, then you can crank and get it to fire and then die as itâ€™s still not rich enough to run after the slug has gone. Eventually the cylinders get warm enough to allow it to fire even though itâ€™s a bit weak.

Read the Bing manual that is in the Jabiru engine manual, good pictures and explanation.

 

The â€˜Chokeâ€™ lever opens a rotary slide valve that allows air through to drag the fuel from chamber at the side of the bowl where the slug is and the restrictor sits.

Itâ€™s important that this is fully rotated the last few degrees making the most difference. There is some pictures showing a mod that can be done to the quadrant in the Yahoo engine list album. This allows the rotary valve to go a little further, this has been found to be a problem on some carbys.

 

My 2200 does none of this, it just starts, unless it Baltic then it doesnâ€™t.

 

My 5c on the burst and die phenomena, Regards, Clive

3300 #1460, 37 hrs

2200#596, 1300hrs

 

 

 

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net

Sent: 07 December 2011 20:18

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Cold Weather Starts

 

List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP

 	  Quote: 	
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:30 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Try richening the idle mixture by turning the idle mixture screw counter clockwise (out) a turn.Â  If that does not help then drill out the choke jet in the carb bowl to 1.2 mm.Â  That will also provide a richer idle mixture in cold weather.

 

Pete

 

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net

Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 2:18 PM

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Cold Weather Starts

 

List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP

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   [quote][b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Bobby:



I fly an RV6 with an O-360 that is very temperature sensitive.  It requires a GOOD pre-heat before starting.

From your explanation, I do not think it is vaporization problem.  It sounds like it is TOO RICH.  

 



100W bulb would only help when the temps are on the high side AND you are hangered.  

Try building an adjustable Propane 50,000 BTU pre-heater... Cost will be under $200.  And the engine will reach 60F on a 20F days in 15 minutes.

 



Barry



On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:17 PM,  <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote] List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

 A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

 Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP



  	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Good Afternoon Barry,

  

 Not sure if this is the truth or just an Old Wives Tale, but back in the  days when I was warming big round engines for Uncle Sam, they told us that short  heat times were counter productive. We were told that even if the temperature  gauge came up in fifteen minutes, the Herman Nelson should be left applied for  at least a couple of hours.

  

 The idea was that the heat needs to be evenly distributed throughout  the engine and that will not occur in a short time.  Seems that some  components may not fit as well as they should without even heating. May not be  true, just repeating what I was told sixty-five years ago!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 Corporal

 USMC

  

  In a message dated 12/7/2011 4:33:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,  flyadive(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bobby:    



   I fly an RV6 with an O-360 that is very temperature sensitive.     It requires a GOOD pre-heat before starting.

   



   From your explanation, I do not think it is vaporization problem.     It sounds like it is TOO RICH.  

   



   100W bulb would only help when the temps are on the high side AND you are    hangered.  

   Try building an adjustable Propane 50,000 BTU pre-heater... Cost will be    under $200.  And the engine will reach 60F on a 20F days in 15    minutes.

   



   Barry



   On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:17 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            List,

My      3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather.      With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3      seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for      vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10      repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better      on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the      ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with      285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little      also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and      continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50      deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any      ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP



 	  Quote: 	
		  



_ 	


	




	


 [quote][b]

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

Booby, with the greatest respect, what rubbish.

 

You should be able to start a Jabiru and a Lycoming down to 45 degrees easily without pre heating and with a few tweaks  I’m sure Bobby will.

 

Dear me….$200 for a 2c solution, do you work for a contract company that supports and multi national major by any chance?

 

I suppose at least were’ not talking about piston offset, although I’m getting withdrawal symptoms, let’s hear a bit more about slap and rocking over….Lynn, it’s been nearly two hours!

 

 

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE

Sent: 07 December 2011 22:31

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Cold Weather Starts

 

Bobby:

 



I fly an RV6 with an O-360 that is very temperature sensitive.  It requires a GOOD pre-heat before starting.



 



From your explanation, I do not think it is vaporization problem.  It sounds like it is TOO RICH.  



 



100W bulb would only help when the temps are on the high side AND you are hangered.  



Try building an adjustable Propane 50,000 BTU pre-heater... Cost will be under $200.  And the engine will reach 60F on a 20F days in 15 minutes.



 



Barry

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:17 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

List,

My 3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather. With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3 seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10 repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with 285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50 deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP

 	  Quote: 	
		    _blank">www.aeroelectric.com.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


 

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 [quote][b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

FIRST OFF... THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.And don't forget what to day is:

Today, December 7, 1941a day that will live in infamy.

Well, Bob, some of the story is true.

The idea of quickly heating the outside of an engine and not heating the inside does cause a difference in expansion and contraction.  There is the possibility that one part could expand and apply pressure to another.  The only thing wrong with the theory is it takes quite a bit of Cold to Contract metals and quite a bit of Heat to rapidly expand metals.  

 If you monitor the engine temp with things like your OIL Temp Probe and CHT Probe and EGT Probe you will see with confidence that the engine is heating up very uniform.  I've pre-heated on 20 F days to where my OIL Probe moved off the peg and was reading 70F INSIDE the engine.

 A good 30 minutes to 1 hour of pre-heat with my homemade unit will bring an entire engine up to summer temps.

Semper Fidelis, Old Man

 



Barry

 USAF

2Lt

 



On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:48 PM,  <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]      Good Afternoon Barry,

  

 Not sure if this is the truth or just an Old Wives Tale, but back in the  days when I was warming big round engines for Uncle Sam, they told us that short  heat times were counter productive. We were told that even if the temperature  gauge came up in fifteen minutes, the Herman Nelson should be left applied for  at least a couple of hours.

  

 The idea was that the heat needs to be evenly distributed throughout  the engine and that will not occur in a short time.  Seems that some  components may not fit as well as they should without even heating. May not be  true, just repeating what I was told sixty-five years ago!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 Corporal

 USMC



  

  In a message dated 12/7/2011 4:33:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,  flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bobby:    



   I fly an RV6 with an O-360 that is very temperature sensitive.     It requires a GOOD pre-heat before starting.

   



   From your explanation, I do not think it is vaporization problem.     It sounds like it is TOO RICH.  

   



   100W bulb would only help when the temps are on the high side AND you are    hangered.  

   Try building an adjustable Propane 50,000 BTU pre-heater... Cost will be    under $200.  And the engine will reach 60F on a 20F days in 15    minutes.

   



   Barry



   On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:17 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            List,

My      3300 is very hard to start and continue running in 45 to 60 deg. weather.      With the choke full on and throttle at idle it will start and run about 2 -3      seconds and die. I have to wait about 20 to 30 sec. ( most likely for      vaporization ) before trying it again or it will not fire. After about 10      repeats it will have enough heat to continue to run. It does a little better      on 100LL and a little worse on Autofuel. I have checked the gap in the      ignition coils and float level in the carb. I am running a 260 main jet with      285 needle jet. 

A 100 watt light under the cowl all night helps a little      also.

After the first start of the day it will start instantly and      continue running great even if the temperature stays in the 40 to 50      deg.range.  Is this a choke issue or ??

Any      ideas??



Bobby

3300 133 hrs. 

601 XL "B"

N131BP



 	  Quote: 	
		  



_ 	


	




	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: Cold Weather Starts

But if you'll notice, Clive, we aren't over on the Yahoo side of  

things. We are now speaking to a brand new audience of Matronics  

people....people who probably have not even HEARD of the piston pin  

offset thread.



I took two hours off to go "de-float" a J-3 Cub, in anticipation of  

replacing the floats with skis. : )  And we were talking pistons,  

pins, and which way is up, over at the hangar!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)

Status: flying with 1201 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)

On Dec 7, 2011, at 5:56 PM, James, Clive R wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Booby, with the greatest respect, what rubbish.



 You should be able to start a Jabiru and a Lycoming down to 45  

 degrees easily without pre heating and with a few tweaks  I’m sure  

 Bobby will.



 Dear me….$200 for a 2c solution, do you work for a contract company  

 that supports and multi national major by any chance?



 I suppose at least were’ not talking about piston offset, although  

 I’m getting withdrawal symptoms, let’s hear a bit more about slap  

 and rocking over….Lynn, it’s been nearly two hours!

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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