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ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

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dblahnick(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.

Brian,



 I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.

 



For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the material).

 



I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in Part I. Enough said. 

This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've come across. 

 



I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to help others. 

 



By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...

 



A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)

 



And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.

 



-- 

Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)



 







 

  [quote][b]

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hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:27 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

Drew,

   Thanks for all the info. I would like to piggyback on your comment about it being a civilian organization as it relates to the tactical comments from some earlier posts.

    

   I may have been one of the first to question us doing tactical events. I had a near miss doing one of these exercises at Waycross a few years ago. It sobered me as to the risks and made me question what the organization itself should be endorsing. 

    

   I also flew in a 24-ship at Oshkosh some years ago. High winds and an overworked airboss made for a less than pleasant experience. Again, I began to question what we are doing as an organization.

    

   My company does lots of maintenance and training for some third world air forces. We in essense have a contract with the US State Dept. They control what we are approved to do. Much of what we freely share at RPA and CJAA I am prohibited from teaching overseas. Interesting, eh?

    

   My point is that we have a very wide variety of experience levels in our community. Some of us have done all the tactical stuff in our previous lives, some have not. I believe an individual instructor should choose what level to teach someone based on that person's skills, experience, and desires. Formation and tactical flying makes you a better pilot, period. 

    

   However, the emphasis should be on basics. A guy who can barely hang on the wing in 2 or 4-ship has no business being in a 24-ship. A guy who can't do extended trail without parking in the lead's six and sucking up his wake turbulence has no business doing tactical maneuvering.

    

   Everyone can and should strive for perfection in the basics and then continue to practice and learn new things. However, there is a real risk to RPA publishing and endorsing high level activities. I promise any accident can and will come back to bite us. I believe we can deal with this kind of activity on a local level.

    

   Anyway, sorry for being long winded but I love you guys and this flying so much that I hate to see safety being compromised in any way. What we do is already a high risk activity. It is up to us to manage that risk so that we have the pleasure of this privilege for a long time to come.

    

   Cheers

 

 

   Richard Hess

 C 404-964-4885

 

 

   --

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grabstein(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

All - 

The key to the RPA forums is to be logged in to the RPA site before choosing "forums" on the "members" menu. The integration is a bit clunky and you may have to pick the menu item again, although it seems to work fine most of the time. 

 



Like everyone else, I have limited time to volunteer to this. Don't wait for it to be perfect. 



--Kurt Howerton

W: 916.355.3968

M: 530.312.1299



 

Sent from my phone





On Jan 4, 2012, at 5:54 AM, Drew B <dblahnick(at)gmail.com (dblahnick(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote] Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.

Brian, 



 I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.

  



For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the material).

  



I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in Part I. Enough said. 

This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've come across. 

  



I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to help others. 

  



By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...

  



A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)

  



And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.

  



-- 

Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)



  







 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

ics.com

.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick(at)gmail.com (dblahnick(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.

Brian,

 

 I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, 

	




Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems to come under the purvey of RPA.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.

  



For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the material).

  



I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in Part I. Enough said. 

	




 Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to recognize same and say, "Good job."

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  



This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've come across. 

  



I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to help others. 

 	




Spot on.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   



By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...

  



A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)

 	




I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52 (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the technology and operating parameters are no different than similar civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper, or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil, not military. 

 



So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely, than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   



And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use that word correctly Brian) 

	
 



 It works. 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.

 	




And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just a thought.

 



And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.

Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves.  I have held off

on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but

enough is enough.  



Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous

with RPA.  



So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.  



Mark Bitterlich

--

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GeorgeCoy

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:03 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

Ahmen



--

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kregg(at)balancemyprop.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

I guess that means we can all pull up our pants and go home

..............................



Kregg Victory



--

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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms

Mark,

Go figure, u and I agree on this.



Bill



On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.

 Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves.  I have held off

 on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but

 enough is enough.  

 

 Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous

 with RPA.  

 

 So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.  

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

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