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Domed Rivets Question

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martyn(at)flight.co.za
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

Hello All,



Why must I alter (Machine) my rivet Gun heads, when there are allready

Domed head blind rivets available in shops?



Could someone please explain to me why this is so! I'm sure it's an easy

answer 



Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Avex 'Avdel' Rivet in A4 and A5, can be

replaced by a Domed Head rivet of A3 and A6 respectivly?



Is it a case of Cost?



Or does this method of modified rivet heads make a stronger join than pre

shaped (domed) rivets?



Thanks in advance!

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Jari Kaija

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

 	  Quote: 	
		   Could someone please explain to me why this is so! I'm sure it's an easy

 answer 


	


I will try. Zenair has thought, that when you are using countersunk rivet,

rivet's "neck" will be more tight against hole edges in aluminium than

domed has. And they "think", that formed head from counters. to domed

will be stroung enough.



STILL! I'm not using countersunk with my CH701. Not even avdel

avex rivets. I'm using stronger one, what I found from planet called earth.

I had very smiley face few years ago, when I tested avdel vs. "my choice" 

rivets.



BUT! It is MY choice and I DO NOT suggest it to anyone else, if

he/she do not know, what he/she is doing!

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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

Chris has designed a simple method of working with two types of rivets

on your plane for almost every location A4/A5. The domed head work

hardens the countersunk head making it stronger and also allows the

rivet to accept a varying amount of metal thicknesses, while offering a

more watertight seal. Without the formed head you would need to

determine the metal thickness of each piece you were going to rivet and

use a rivet with the appropriate throat(stem length). In this I would

imagine you would need about 4-5 more rivet sizes in each the A4 and A5

with different stem lengths to accommodate the different material

thicknesses. I like the idea of two rivets choices and the simplicity

that Chris Heintz has created by doming the head of a countersunk rivet.



cdngoose

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com

--

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planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

Do not archive



Why use flush Avdel Avex Rivets and reshape the head? Chris H. told me there 

are several reasons. Many novice metal airplane builders aren't experienced 

in assuring the two pieces of metal being riveted must be in thight contact 

with each other to develope a strong joint. Since rivets do most of their 

work in shear this is important, especially with the very thin metal we use 

on these Zeniths.. That is one of the reasons why we must deburr the holes 

carefully. Builders working with solid rivets must learn to "draw" the metal 

pieces together to get a strong joint. I've said all that to say the neat 

thing about the Avdel Avex Rivet installed as Chris H wants, actually pulls 

the pieces of  metal together as the rivet is set.



Apparently this is not an absolute necessity because the Murphy Airplanes 

and others, use the Avdel Avex Rivets but they use the ones manufactured 

with the dome head. Chris is just helping the first time builder!



The unique design feature of the Avex which allows us to use just one length 

of each - A4 and A5 - for the entire aircraft is another one of the nice 

things about them. They aren't length sensetive as are the Cherry Q and N 

rivets used in the Sonex and other aircraft. The Cherry Rivets are stronger 

but you must pay attention to the length at each location.



Reshaping the head allows a nice tight fit against the skin too. The 

retained stem in the formed head makes them neary water tight.



Be careful though. As a Tech Counselor I looked at a nearly completed 601XL 

where the builder used the flush rivets without using the machined heads on 

his pnuematic rivet gun. He hadn't read the basic Sheet Metal Instruction 

that Zenith provides. There was a gap under every rivet head on the 

airplane. After I talked with Chris about this he said the entire airplane 

had to be disassembled and re-riveted. The rivets installed improperly this 

way just won't have the strength required. I've not been asked to look at 

that airplane again - YET!



My personal experience is that when I considered building the 601HD I was 

concerned about using blind rivets for the entire airplane except the spars. 

I had completed a Midget Mustang I back in 1971 using solid rivets for 

everything, even to hold nutplates. Also as an A & P I had worked on many 

airliners and general aviation airplanes, using very few blind rivets and 

the ones I used just weren't very good except the expensive and very length 

sensitive Cherry Lock and Cherry Max rivets. I decided to look into the 

various "Blind" rivets and now have a better understanding of these 

fastners.



I've yet to find a loose or sheared Avex Rivet in my 601 HD with 512 hours. 

Install them correctly and they will do a fine job, just like Chris H wanted 

them to.



Go fly!



Jim Hoak



---

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paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

As I understand it, the rationale behind this is that ZAC uses counter=

sunk rivets, and the cupped rivet gun head work-hardens the head by be=

nding the CS rivet down into a domed shape. Adds a little strength to =

it.=0D=0A=0D=0APaul Rodriguez=0D=0A601XL/Corvair=0D=0A  ----- Original=

 Message ----- =0D=0A  From: martyn(at)flight.co.za<mailto:martyn(at)flight.=

co.za> =0D=0A  To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list(at)matron=

ics.com> =0D=0A  Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:14 AM=0D=0A  Subject: Z=

enith-List: Domed Rivets Question=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A  --> Zenith-List m=

essage posted by: martyn(at)flight.co.za<mailto:martyn(at)flight.co.za>=0D=

=0A=0D=0A  Hello All,=0D=0A=0D=0A  Why must I alter (Machine) my rivet=

 Gun heads, when there are allready=0D=0A  Domed head blind rivets ava=

ilable in shops?=0D=0A=0D=0A  Could someone please explain to me why t=

his is so! I'm sure it's an easy=0D=0A  answer =0D=0A=0D=0A  Correct=

 me if I'm wrong, but the Avex 'Avdel' Rivet in A4 and A5, can be=0D=

=0A  replaced by a Domed Head rivet of A3 and A6 respectivly?=0D=0A=0D=

=0A  Is it a case of Cost?=0D=0A=0D=0A  Or does this method of modifie=

d rivet heads make a stronger join than pre=0D=0A  shaped (domed) rive=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D=

=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A   =0D=0A   =0D=0A   =0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=

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nfivesl(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

Jim:



I removed the "D* NOT Arch**" from the text below

because this was one of the better emails I've seen on

riveting.  



Thanks for taking the time to share this information. 



Scott Laughlin

601XL

All I lack is finishing



--- Jim Hoak <planejim(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Why use flush Avdel Avex Rivets and reshape the

 head? Chris H. told me there 

 are several reasons. Many novice metal airplane

 builders aren't experienced 

 in assuring the two pieces of metal being riveted

 must be in thight contact 

 with each other to develope a strong joint. Since

 rivets do most of their 

 work in shear this is important, especially with the

 very thin metal we use 

 on these Zeniths.. That is one of the reasons why we

 must deburr the holes 

 carefully. Builders working with solid rivets must

 learn to "draw" the metal 

 pieces together to get a strong joint. I've said all

 that to say the neat 

 thing about the Avdel Avex Rivet installed as Chris

 H wants, actually pulls 

 the pieces of  metal together as the rivet is set.

 

 Apparently this is not an absolute necessity because

 the Murphy Airplanes 

 and others, use the Avdel Avex Rivets but they use

 the ones manufactured 

 with the dome head. Chris is just helping the first

 time builder!

 

 The unique design feature of the Avex which allows

 us to use just one length 

 of each - A4 and A5 - for the entire aircraft is

 another one of the nice 

 things about them. They aren't length sensetive as

 are the Cherry Q and N 

 rivets used in the Sonex and other aircraft. The

 Cherry Rivets are stronger 

 but you must pay attention to the length at each

 location.

 

 Reshaping the head allows a nice tight fit against

 the skin too. The 

 retained stem in the formed head makes them neary

 water tight.

 

 Be careful though. As a Tech Counselor I looked at a

 nearly completed 601XL 

 where the builder used the flush rivets without

 using the machined heads on 

 his pnuematic rivet gun. He hadn't read the basic

 Sheet Metal Instruction 

 that Zenith provides. There was a gap under every

 rivet head on the 

 airplane. After I talked with Chris about this he

 said the entire airplane 

 had to be disassembled and re-riveted. The rivets

 installed improperly this 

 way just won't have the strength required. I've not

 been asked to look at 

 that airplane again - YET!

 

 My personal experience is that when I considered

 building the 601HD I was 

 concerned about using blind rivets for the entire

 airplane except the spars. 

 I had completed a Midget Mustang I back in 1971

 using solid rivets for 

 everything, even to hold nutplates. Also as an A & P

 I had worked on many 

 airliners and general aviation airplanes, using very

 few blind rivets and 

 the ones I used just weren't very good except the

 expensive and very length 

 sensitive Cherry Lock and Cherry Max rivets. I

 decided to look into the 

 various "Blind" rivets and now have a better

 understanding of these 

 fastners.

 

 I've yet to find a loose or sheared Avex Rivet in my

 601 HD with 512 hours. 

 Install them correctly and they will do a fine job,

 just like Chris H wanted 

 them to.

 

 Go fly!

 

 Jim Hoak


	




__________________________________________________

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Jari Kaija

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Domed Rivets Question

 	  Quote: 	
		   imagine you would need about 4-5 more rivet sizes in each the A4 and A5

 with different stem lengths to accommodate the different material


	


Thats true! 4 different sizes for A4 and 2 (3) different sizes for A5. 

One thing what I missed with manufacturer's gatalog. They have 

fully sealed versions of those rivets also what I use. Sad, but it's too 

late for me... Maybe I will use those, when starting build floats...

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