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Which 55-60 amp alternator

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

Bob,



Assuming that in order to end up with an externally regulated 55-60 amp

alternator, I will probably have to modify an IR model, which alternator

should I buy to start with.



I want the fans to turn the correct direction (CCW when viewed at the

pulley) for use on a lycoming.



I don't want to pay the big bucks for a B&C unit and don't mind doing the

work to convert it.  



Bevan

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

At 01:23 PM 8/13/2012, you wrote:

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>

  

 Bob,



 Assuming that in order to end up with an externally regulated 55-60 amp

 alternator, I will probably have to modify an IR model, which alternator

 should I buy to start with.



   I'm not sufficiently familiar with the

   choices to advise you confidently. It would

   seem that the driving constraint is purely

   mechanical. Research the parts available to bolt

   it to the engine including any changes to

   the stock pulley.



   Unless you're willing to tackle mechanical

   integration issues along with electrical, you'd

   probably want to limit you search to frames

   already supported by off-the-shelf attach

   hardware.



 I want the fans to turn the correct direction (CCW when viewed at the

 pulley) for use on a lycoming.



 

   That used to be a 'thing' to consider with

   external fans with blades optimized for direction

   of rotation.



 [img]https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2RVsXHbk96gX586Gl_JTFHKS_mmDSHKRKUjjI9eeWbpWLysEs[/img]  



   Modern alternators have internal fans with

   little if any 'sculpturing' of the blades

   

 [img]https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwC9Tc1fQL5bJpQsZWZ0ybe93jtsul4qEU7xFg2-p7TEfV9fuy[/img]  



   Rotating an alternator 'backwards' in an

   airplane is unlikely to pose any problems.

   First, you're exceedingly unlikely to stress

   your alternator in a manner that produces

   maximum rated internal heating. The cooling

   environment under the hood of a car is MUCH

   worse than under the cowl of your airplane.

   Further, you're going to be spinning the

   alternator much faster than the original

   application design point . . . cooling is

   not a big issue.



 I don't want to pay the big bucks for a B&C unit and don't mind doing the

 work to convert it.  



   You can run it internally regulated . . . you

   could do a mod similar to that offered by Plane

   Power for crowbar ov protection and external

   control of field power. 



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

Thanks Bob,

  

 The online alternator vendors don't supply data such as  mounting bracket dimensions, pulley diameter etc.  they just say it fit a  particular make and model car.

  

 Can I assume that a 12V 60 amp Denso alternator has the same  mounting dimensions as the 60 amp Plane Power that Vans  sells?

  

   I'm not sufficiently  familiar with the

  choices to advise you confidently. It  would

  seem that the driving constraint is purely

  mechanical.  Research the parts available to bolt

  it to the engine including any  changes to

  the stock pulley.

 

 Fair  enough.  Anyone have any experience with this?  I've already wired the  plane for external control and crowbar as I agree with the philosophy.  So  I would like to keep it this way.  Nothing lasts for ever.  So my  theory is to buy two alternators online for the price of one B & C or Plane  power.  Mod them both for external control and one will be then be a  spare.  

  

  Unless you're  willing to tackle mechanical

  integration issues along with electrical,  you'd

  probably want to limit you search to frames

  already  supported by off-the-shelf attach

  hardware. 

  

 Exactly.  Still  need top know the dimensional data.  Anyone have a Vans, B&C,  Plane Power 60amp that it will to measure the mounting bracket  boss?



  That used to be a 'thing' to consider  with

  external fans with blades optimized for direction

  of  rotation.



[img]https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2RVsXHbk96gX586Gl_JTFHKS_mmDSHKRKUjjI9eeWbpWLysEs[/img]  



  Modern alternators have  internal fans with

  little if any 'sculpturing' of the blades

   

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwC9Tc1fQL5bJpQsZWZ0ybe93jtsul4qEU7xFg2-p7TEfV9fuy[/img]  



  Rotating an alternator  'backwards' in an

  airplane is unlikely to pose any problems.

   First, you're exceedingly unlikely to stress

  your alternator in a  manner that produces

  maximum rated internal heating. The  cooling

  environment under the hood of a car is MUCH

  worse  than under the cowl of your airplane.

  Further, you're going to be  spinning the

  alternator much faster than the original

   application design point . . . cooling is

  not a big issue. 

  

  OK, makes sense.  I will not be concerned  with direction of fans. 



  You can run it  internally regulated . . . you

  could do a mod similar to that offered  by Plane

  Power for crowbar ov protection and external

   control of field power.  

  

 I'm  confused by the above statement.  Does that not make it externally  controlled or is there a variation on a theme here?  Is there a document  that describes the PP mod?

  

 Bevan

 

     [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator



   You can run it internally regulated . . . you

   could do a mod similar to that offered by Plane

   Power for crowbar ov protection and external

   control of field power.  

  

 I'm confused by the above statement.  Does that not make it externally controlled or is there a variation on a theme here?  Is there a document that describes the PP mod?

  

   Let's make a distinction between internally and

   externally REGULATED . . . which speaks to the

   location of the electronics that exercises dynamic

   control of field current for the purpose of

   maintaining desired bus voltage. Then there's

   a legacy design goal for any-time, any-conditions

   control of alternator function by the pilot.



   Referring you to an exemplar schematic for an

   internally regulated alternator . . .



  http://tinyurl.com/8a9uuns



   the pathway in green shows how energy from the

   battery makes it through a controlling device

   (in this case, an N-channel FET) to the alternator

   field. Note that both CONTROL and WARNING

   functions (red) attach to electronics within

   the regulator's circuitry. If something in that

   circuitry fails or the FET shorts, then full

   battery voltage is applied to the field, regulation

   control is lost and you have an over-voltage

   condition.



   There's been a great deal of discussion in the past

   as to the suitability of internally regulated alternators

   on airplanes. I have always maintained that I could

   not recommend the use of IR alternators because

   they could not offer the legacy any-time, any-condition

   control by the pilot -OR- an ov protection system

   in their off-the-shelf configuration.



   B&C's solution to the problem was to remove the

   built in regulator and offer an external alternator

   control system that included the functional trinity

   for alternator management: Regulation, OV management,

   LV warning.



   Plane power went a different route and simply

   broke the field supply path inside the alternator

   and brought it out so that absolute, any-time

   any conditions control was available to the pilot

   -AND- ov protection could be easily implemented.

   In this case, Plane Power elected to go with

   the crowbar ov protection technique pioneered

   in aircraft by yours truly. The concept was

   slated to go onto the Beech 38P



  http://tinyurl.com/7smb4k5



   Unfortunately, that program never made it to

   the production line.  The last time I saw N336BA,

   the fuselage was sitting outside Burt Rutan's

   hangar at Mojave.



  http://tinyurl.com/cj3n24a



   Since that time, crowbar ov protection has

   be successfully applied to thousands of installations

   in dozens of aircraft.



   If you want to convert an off-the-shelf

   alternator to your use while embracing the legacy

   design goals for engine driven power sources, you

   have the option of doing the B&C thingy or the

   Plane-Power thingy . . . either one works good

   and lasts a long time. 



   I'm aware of no article which describes the PP

   modification. It's difficult even to find local alternator

   repair shops that could assist in making the

   modifications . . . although it's usually pretty

   simple to figure out once the alternator is cracked

   open. There have been some articles that described

   total bypassing of the internal regulator for going

   the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready

   recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on

   the List has a broader insight to your quest.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

There have been some articles that described

   total bypassing of the internal regulator for going

   the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready

   recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on

   the List has a broader insight to your quest.

 

 

 

     

  Bob . . .   [quote]Here is an article published by EAA for conversion of an internal regulated to external regulated alternator. http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp Roger[b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:25 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

At 08:56 AM 8/15/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   There have been some articles that described

   total bypassing of the internal regulator for going

   the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy ready

   recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on

   the List has a broader insight to your quest.



 



   Bob . . . 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is an article published by EAA

[/b]for conversion of an internal regulated

[/b]to external regulated

alternator.[/b] [/b]

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp

[/b] 	
	


   Cool! I'd not seen that particular article. Thanks

   for heads-up. A very good article that needed only a few  minor corrections. I've captured the article and mirrored

   it with comments at:



  http://tinyurl.com/crte9xe



 



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

Thanks everyone,  we're getting very close  here.

  

 It is still unclear to me which 60 amp ND alternator to start  with that will fit the Van's mounting bracket (Boss mount?).  What have  other done?

  

 Bevan

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger  & Jean Curtis

Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:57  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE:  Which 55-60 amp alternator

 

  

There  have been some articles that described

  total bypassing of the internal  regulator for going

  the B&C approach . . . but I don't enjoy  ready

  recall for those documents. Perhaps somebody on

  the  List has a broader insight to your  quest.



 

  Bob . . .  [quote]Here is an article published by EAA for conversion of an internal regulated to external regulated alternator. http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp Roger



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject: Which 55-60 amp alternator

At 11:50 AM 8/15/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks everyone,  we're getting very close here.

  

 It is still unclear to me which 60 amp ND alternator to start with that will fit the Van's mounting bracket (Boss mount?).  What have other done?

  

 Bevan

  	


   Here's a wild (at)#S guess. Here's a Lester #14935 that

   fits 85-88 Tercels.



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20120815153159.047a6198(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

 Oriley's offers this one for about $100. It's frame geometry

 appears the same as the B&C L-60 and others popular with

 the OBAM aviation market.



  http://tinyurl.com/8vfkj66



 If you've got the mount, you could go down to the local parts

 store and fit check the alternator with the mount and measure

 the offset from boss-mount bolt holes to the pulley centerline.

 Of course, you need to find a new pulley too.



 



 

 

   Bob . . .

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