Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

outrigger legs

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Hi Monowheel drivers,

I broke one outrigger leg two months ago and flew for a while with an emergency repair designed on site just to allow me to go back home: the repair was made using the existing remains of the nylon rod lengthened with scrap aluminum tubing. When I finally received the nylon rods ordered from the Europa factory I could not use them because they were slightly too short and badly machined. So I ordered a length of 1"1/4 Nylon from ACS and installed them immediately. At the first landing, one of the all new legs broke just at mid length. I was very embarassed as this happened on a big airport were I had the honor of a jumbo eight wheeler fire truck! This time I managed to repair quickly as I was carrying the old emergency repaired rod in the aircraft. I am now afraid of flying with the aircraft as it is, as an out rigger leg can break again at the next landing.

My questions:

- How is that possible that a new nylon rod breaks at the very first landing while the original parts have been able to withstand 12 years of aging, 950 flight hours and probably one or two thousand landings, some of them not as smooth as they should be?

- How is that possible that the nylon rod broke right at mid length, which is not where the maximum stress is located? Note that the first leg broke at the upper end which seems logical to me.

- What is the experience on other monowheels regarding the life of those nylon rods?

- has anyone designed and tested a variation of the original outriggers, with rods made of other materials such as glass fiber, steel...?

Regards

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, grounded

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Remi

I remember there was some testing of various grades of nylon, they are not all the same.

Was it nylon 6-6 that was chosen? Also worth noting that nylon absorbs up to 7% by weight water. Does that make it less brittle? Nigel or Ivan please?

Graham



        From: Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent:  Saturday, 11 August 2012, 21:00

 Subject: outrigger legs

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>



Hi Monowheel drivers,

I broke one outrigger leg two months ago and flew for a while with an emergency repair designed on site just to allow me to go back home: the repair was made using the existing remains of the nylon rod lengthened with scrap aluminum tubing. When I finally received the nylon rods ordered from the Europa factory I could not use them because they were slightly too short and badly machined. So I ordered a length of 1"1/4 Nylon from ACS and installed them immediately. At the first landing, one of the all new legs broke just at mid length. I was very embarassed as this happened on a big airport were I had the honor of a jumbo  eight wheeler fire truck! This time I managed to repair quickly as I was carrying the old emergency repaired rod in the aircraft. I am now afraid of flying with the aircraft as it is, as an out rigger leg can break again at the next landing.

My questions:

- How is that possible that a new nylon rod breaks at the very first landing while the original parts have been able to withstand 12 years of aging, 950 flight hours and probably one or two thousand landings, some of them not as smooth as they should be?

- How is that possible that the nylon rod broke right at mid length, which is not where the maximum stress is located? Note that the first leg broke at the upper end which seems logical to me.

- What is the experience on other monowheels regarding the life of those nylon rods?

- has anyone designed and tested a variation of the original outriggers, with rods made of other materials such as glass fiber, steel...?

Regards

Remi  Guerner

F-PGKL, grounded





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=38067m/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigatsp;              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

nbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,tribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

_-===================================



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Have you considered making some out of Kevlar, could be lighter and

stronger, and more forgiving than the nylon

As for the nylon, I have seen "casting" faults in some of the larger pieces

I have been given over the years. They

Looked like a light coloured line or hair in the nylon. For general use most

people wouldn't notice and it wouldn't

Have any effect on the performance of the product. Maybe you had one that

went undetected at that failure point, until you landed.



Good luck, no damage I hope



Craig

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Remi,

Maybe a bad batch of legs supplied to the Company. Tell the Company and return them for testing. They should send another pair out hopefully from a different batch. 



Cheers,



Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

On 12/08/2012, at 8:00 AM, "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Monowheel drivers,

 I broke one outrigger leg two months ago and flew for a while with an emergency repair designed on site just to allow me to go back home: the repair was made using the existing remains of the nylon rod lengthened with scrap aluminum tubing. When I finally received the nylon rods ordered from the Europa factory I could not use them because they were slightly too short and badly machined. So I ordered a length of 1"1/4 Nylon from ACS and installed them immediately. At the first landing, one of the all new legs broke just at mid length. I was very embarassed as this happened on a big airport were I had the honor of a jumbo eight wheeler fire truck! This time I managed to repair quickly as I was carrying the old emergency repaired rod in the aircraft. I am now afraid of flying with the aircraft as it is, as an out rigger leg can break again at the next landing.

 My questions:

 - How is that possible that a new nylon rod breaks at the very first landing while the original parts have been able to withstand 12 years of aging, 950 flight hours and probably one or two thousand landings, some of them not as smooth as they should be?

 - How is that possible that the nylon rod broke right at mid length, which is not where the maximum stress is located? Note that the first leg broke at the upper end which seems logical to me.

 - What is the experience on other monowheels regarding the life of those nylon rods?

 - has anyone designed and tested a variation of the original outriggers, with rods made of other materials such as glass fiber, steel...?

 Regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL, grounded

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380679#380679

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Hi Remi,

I have had several outrigger legs fail. Some from bad landings. Others for no good reason. It is my belief that the Nylon-66 does not easily show any signs of weakness or eminent failure. So you can't properly inspect preflight.

I know from talking to other mono pilots that plenty of failures have occurred for no apparent reason.



I started using fiberglass rod, 5/8" diameter. I use a 6" piece of the nylon-66 with a 5/8" hole bored thru the center to fit the fiberglass rod into the Outrigger socket. I tapered the nylon from the bottom of the socket to the lower end of the 6" nylon. I tested this on the bench and the rod has about the same flex as the original setup, but when it fails, it is progressive and visible, rather than shattering unpredictably.

I made new wheel forks out of steel to fit 4"inline skate wheels to the smaller diameter legs. They seem no different in the way they perform from the original shopping cart wheels, except they are urethane, have sealed bearings, and wear quite well. Narrower, so probably less drag.

This setup has worked well for me and saved about 1.5lbs.



Kevin



On Aug 11, 2012, at 1:00 PM, "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Monowheel drivers,

 I broke one outrigger leg two months ago and flew for a while with an emergency repair designed on site just to allow me to go back home: the repair was made using the existing remains of the nylon rod lengthened with scrap aluminum tubing. When I finally received the nylon rods ordered from the Europa factory I could not use them because they were slightly too short and badly machined. So I ordered a length of 1"1/4 Nylon from ACS and installed them immediately. At the first landing, one of the all new legs broke just at mid length. I was very embarassed as this happened on a big airport were I had the honor of a jumbo eight wheeler fire truck! This time I managed to repair quickly as I was carrying the old emergency repaired rod in the aircraft. I am now afraid of flying with the aircraft as it is, as an out rigger leg can break again at the next landing.

 My questions:

 - How is that possible that a new nylon rod breaks at the very first landing while the original parts have been able to withstand 12 years of aging, 950 flight hours and probably one or two thousand landings, some of them not as smooth as they should be?

 - How is that possible that the nylon rod broke right at mid length, which is not where the maximum stress is located? Note that the first leg broke at the upper end which seems logical to me.

 - What is the experience on other monowheels regarding the life of those nylon rods?

 - has anyone designed and tested a variation of the original outriggers, with rods made of other materials such as glass fiber, steel...?

 Regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL, grounded

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380679#380679

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: Re: outrigger legs

Hi Kevin,

Your mod seems to be a good solution. However I am concern about the higher stiffness of the 5/8" fiberglass rod at extreme deflection such as in case of a flat tyre. Did you test this condition? How many hours have you flown with this mod? Where did you purchase the fiber glass rod?

Thanks to all who have quickly responded to my post.

Remi

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: outrigger legs

Tim,

I experimented with many different materials for the outrigger legs and it

was not until using 'nylon 66' that the strength, flexibility and longevity

were all OK.



Regards 

Ivan



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:55 am Post subject: outrigger legs

Ivan

what about the water content, how does that affect stiffness? I wonder if drought conditions is harmful?



Graham

        From: Ivan Shaw <ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2012, 10:44

 Subject: RE: Europa-List: outrigger legs

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ivan  Shaw" <ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com (ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com)>



Tim,

I experimented with many different materials for the outrigger legs and it

was not until using 'nylon 66' that the strength, flexibility and longevity

were all OK.



Regards 

Ivan



--

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

I purchased the fiberglass rod stock from McMaster-Carr.

I tested it on the bench by fixing it horizontally in the OR fitting with the tapered nylon "adapter bushing". Then applying weights to the wheel end, and measuring the deflection. The 5/8" fiberglass rod has  a very similar flex pattern to the original 1 1/4" nylon-66.

I have flown with this outrigger setup now for over a year, 100 hours and lots of landings. I fly primarily from hard surface runways, but recently completed a nice long "flyabout" from Califoria to northern Washington and Idaho, landing on lots of grass strips. I continued on to Oshkosh, then back to CA. I carry a couple spare legs just in case, but so far so good!



Kevin



On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:06 AM, "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Kevin,

 Your mod seems to be a good solution. However I am concern about the higher stiffness of the 5/8" fiberglass rod at extreme deflection such as in case of a flat tyre. Did you test this condition? How many hours have you flown with this mod? Where did you purchase the fiber glass rod?

 Thanks to all who have quickly responded to my post.

 Remi

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380717#380717

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:22 am Post subject: Re: outrigger legs

Thanks Kevin,

I will certainly use your solution in a near future. BTW I had the opportunity to look at  several Fournier motorgliders and some of them are using a design which is similar to yours except that the fiberglass rod is slightly tapered.

Regards

Remi

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: outrigger legs

Hi Kevin, do you have pictures of your fiberglass outrigger?

 Thanks

 Michel AUVRAY

 Builder 145

   From: klinefelter.kevin (klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com)

 Date: 2012-08-12 21:59

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Re: outrigger legs

  --> Europa-List message posted by: klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com

 I purchased the fiberglass rod stock from McMaster-Carr.

 I tested it on the bench by fixing it horizontally in the OR fitting with the tapered nylon "adapter bushing". Then applying weights to the wheel end, and measuring the deflection. The 5/8" fiberglass rod has  a very similar flex pattern to the original 1 1/4" nylon-66.

 I have flown with this outrigger setup now for over a year, 100 hours and lots of landings. I fly primarily from hard surface runways, but recently completed a nice long "flyabout" from Califoria to northern Washington and Idaho, landing on lots of grass strips. I continued on to Oshkosh, then back to CA. I carry a couple spare legs just in case, but so far so good!

 Kevin

 On Aug 12, 2012, at 1:06 AM, "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 > 

 > Hi Kevin,

 > Your mod seems to be a good solution. However I am concern about the higher stiffness of the 5/8" fiberglass rod at extreme deflection such as in case of a flat tyre. Did you test this condition? How many hours have you flown with this mod? Where did you purchase the fiber glass rod?

 > Thanks to all who have quickly responded to my post.

 > Remi

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Read this topic online here:

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380717#380717

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 ======================================

 sp;The Europa-List Email Forum -

 avigator to browse

 bsp;List Un/Subscription,

 bsp;Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 ?Europa-List

 ======================================

 p;    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 ;via the Web Forums!

 ======================================

 p;  - List Contribution Web Site -

 ;support!

 p;                   -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ion

 ======================================

   [quote][b]

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: Re: outrigger legs

Remi,



PM me if you still need help. Perhaps I might be of assistance.



Jonathan

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

Jonathan,

I have finally installed the new nylon rods supplied by the factory and have flown a few hours since without trouble. But because the supplied rods were badly machined, I had to cut them, then install extensions. So I still consider this fix as temporary and I am considering alternative solutions using composite or metal tapered rods.

Other suggestions?

Remi  





<<<<<<PM me if you still need help. Perhaps I might be of assistance.

Jonathan>>>>>>

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: Re: outrigger legs

In November my classic mono/tail wheel will be with Neville Eyre in Yorkshire getting tri-gear fitted, after I have flown it for 15 years with the "heroic" undercarriage. The time has arrived for me to have fewer challenges while approaching retirement and approaching runways.



So I should soon have a pair of outrigger legs to give to a deserving cause around mid November. The main problem for most Europa mono owners is that the legs are almost certainly too short, because I still have the original direct drive tail wheel under the fin. Subsequent legs were lengthened for aircraft with the extended tail wheel.



I think it will be almost impossible to remove my wheel forks or the sockets from the legs, but if someone out there thinks that these legs could be useful after surviving intact for such a long time, by all means I'd be glad to see them go to a good home.

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject: outrigger legs

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The tri-gear "trainer" wheels will get me used to the idea that some day I may need to accept being in a wheelchair, which will be okay as long as there's a pretty nurse to push me.

 

	
Do not worry Jonathan - pilots get always the prettiest nurse as long as they are able to talk good pilot stories like mono landings. After, she will sit on you (on the wheel chair) and you start to push hard.

  

Cheers

 

- Raimo OH-XRT Finland

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

  [quote][b]

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: Re: outrigger legs

Raimo. Thanks for that thought, but I doubt that I will have strength left in my arms at that age to push the wheels of a wheelchair with two sitting on it together.



However we are not talking about my old arms, but the lovely legs of my other girlfriend Europa G-EIKY. If they are long enough for Remi, then he is welcome to have them; to enjoy their supple strength.

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: outrigger legs

2012/9/25 jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 Raimo. Thanks for that thought, but I doubt that I will have strength left in my arms at that age to push the wheels of a wheelchair with two sitting on it together.

	
 

Jonathan; have an electric wheelchair if you wanna travel same time and use your old but still strong hands for better purposes in that case.

 Maybe you should also save at least one lovely and long enough spare leg for her.

 

Raimo 

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 However we are not talking about my old arms, but the lovely legs of my other girlfriend Europa G-EIKY. If they are long enough for Remi, then he is welcome to have them; to enjoy their supple strength.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383979#383979

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum