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Epoxy

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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Epoxy

To All,

 I've had some discussion with the West Systems  Epoxy people and this is what they had to say. Note that I used my old Ford  tractor as having the bad tank (I've learned not to mention the word  "airplane")  I'm not sure about his last statement that "ALL" epoxies are  vulnerable to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy  tanks.

  

 FROM ME TO WEST:

 Several years ago I asked about a fabricated fiberglass gasoline tank that  was leaking on my Ford tractor. We discussed cutting open the tank and coating  the insides with West Systems epoxy resin. You informed me that it would  probably work just fine and, it did. No leaks for several years now. New  problem,,,in a very short time all the local gasoline is going to 10% Ethanol  and I was told by a friend that the Ethanol was going to eat the West Systems  epoxy off the insides of the tanks. Does this sound like a true statement to  you? If so, I guess it's time to get a new tank. 

 Thanks,

  Don Smythe

  

 FROM WEST:

  

 It is true that ethanol will with time dissolve the cured epoxy - actually  soften it.  So its safe to say that the epoxy answer to gasoline tank  repair may be over.  We are looking into ethanol resistant coating that  could be applied over the epoxy repair.  This could solve the  situation.

  

 FOLLOW UP QUESTION FROM ME TO WEST:

  

 Mr. Watson,

    Thank you for the quick response.  I  see in several places on the web and in your comment that Ethanol will dissolve  or soften Epoxy.  Is this simply West Sytems Epoxy or all Epoxies?   Are there any Epoxies that are 

safe against Ethanol?



Thanks  again

Don Smythe

  

 FINAL RESPONSE FROM WEST:

  

 As far was we can tell it is all epoxies.



Gougeon Brothers,  Inc.

100 Patterson Ave., PO Box 908

Bay City, MI 48707-0908 U.S.A.

tel:  866-937-8797

tel: 989-684-7286

fax: 989-684-1287

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: Epoxy

Don,  

You are doing a great job tacking down the truth here.    

   

Just one thing that may be leading us astray.  Gas stations may have fiberglass tanks that are layed up with polyester resins rather than epoxy.   This may be the explanation for the apparent discrepancy.  

   

Randy  - learning too….  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

 Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 4:21 PM

 To: Kitfox List

 Subject: Epoxy  

  

     

To All,  

    

I've had some discussion with the West Systems Epoxy people and this is what they had to say. Note that I used my old Ford tractor as having the bad tank (I've learned not to mention the word "airplane")  I'm not sure about his last statement that "ALL" epoxies are vulnerable to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.  

    

   

    

FROM ME TO WEST:  

    

Several years ago I asked about a fabricated fiberglass gasoline tank that was leaking on my Ford tractor. We discussed cutting open the tank and coating the insides with West Systems epoxy resin. You informed me that it would probably work just fine and, it did. No leaks for several years now. New problem,,,in a very short time all the local gasoline is going to 10% Ethanol and I was told by a friend that the Ethanol was going to eat the West Systems epoxy off the insides of the tanks. Does this sound like a true statement to you? If so, I guess it's time to get a new tank.   

    

Thanks,  

    

 Don Smythe  

    

   

    

FROM WEST:  

    

   

    

It is true that ethanol will with time dissolve the cured epoxy - actually soften it.  So its safe to say that the epoxy answer to gasoline tank repair may be over.  We are looking into ethanol resistant coating that could be applied over the epoxy repair.  This could solve the situation.  

    

   

    

FOLLOW UP QUESTION FROM ME TO WEST:  

    

   

    

Mr. Watson,

     Thank you for the quick response.  I see in several places on the web and in your comment that Ethanol will dissolve or soften Epoxy.  Is this simply West Sytems Epoxy or all Epoxies?  Are there any Epoxies that are 

 safe against Ethanol?

 

 Thanks again

 Don Smythe  

    

   

    

FINAL RESPONSE FROM WEST:  

    

   

    

As far was we can tell it is all epoxies.

 

 Gougeon Brothers, Inc.

 100 Patterson Ave., PO Box 908

 Bay City, MI 48707-0908 U.S.A.

 tel: 866-937-8797

 tel: 989-684-7286

 fax: 989-684-1287

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Epoxy

At 03:21 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.


	


Actually most chemical tanks, including gas station tanks are made from 

fiberglass / polyester or vinylester resin. I gave a quick shot at tracking 

down a resin formulation but didn't get anywhere. I will try some of my 

industry contacts to see if I can get a source.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: Epoxy

On Jun 10, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Don Smythe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is true that ethanol will with time dissolve the cured epoxy - 

 actually soften it.  So its safe to say that the epoxy answer to 

 gasoline tank repair may be over.  We are looking into ethanol 

 resistant coating that could be applied over the epoxy repair.  This 

 could solve the situation.


	


This is almost, word by word, what I got from West System, Don. I think 

it was also Mr. Watson who answered me.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Epoxy

Don,

  Jan Gougeon, one of the three brothers owning the WEST system components and production facilities, is a homebuilder and flyer of an RV-6..........they published several articles on using the West system products in homebuilding of aircraft.

  Nothing to worry about in talking directly to their engineer, JR, concerning the actual use of the products...........

   

  Sid

  just north of Bay City and good friends to the whole bunch down there

  -------------------

   

  



Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:

  [quote]        To All,

  I've had some discussion with the West Systems Epoxy people and this is what they  had to say. Note that I used my old Ford tractor as having the bad tank (I've learned not to mention the word "airplane")  I'm not sure about his last statement that "ALL" epoxies are vulnerable to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.

   

  FROM ME TO WEST:

  Several years ago I asked about a fabricated fiberglass gasoline tank that was leaking on my Ford tractor. We discussed cutting open the tank and coating the insides with West Systems epoxy resin. You informed me that it would probably work just fine and, it did. No leaks for several years now. New problem,,,in a very short time all the local gasoline is going to 10% Ethanol and I was told by a friend that the Ethanol was going to eat the West Systems epoxy off the insides of the tanks. Does this sound like a true statement to you? If so, I guess it's time to get a new tank. 

   Thanks,

   Don Smythe

   

  FROM WEST:

   

  It is true that ethanol will with time dissolve the cured epoxy - actually soften it.  So its safe to say that the epoxy answer to gasoline tank repair may be over.  We are looking into ethanol resistant coating that could be applied over the epoxy repair.  This could solve the situation.

   

  FOLLOW UP QUESTION FROM ME TO WEST:

   

  Mr. Watson,

    Thank you for the quick response.  I see in several places on the web and in your comment that Ethanol will dissolve or soften Epoxy.  Is this simply West Sytems Epoxy or all Epoxies?  Are there any Epoxies that are 

safe against Ethanol?



Thanks again

Don Smythe

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Epoxy

On Jun 10, 2006, at 11:36 PM, Sid Hausding wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jan Gougeon, one of the three brothers owning the WEST system 

 components and production facilities, is a homebuilder and flyer of an 

 RV-6..........they published several articles on using the West system 

 products in homebuilding of aircraft.


	


Twenty-six years ago, I had the pleasure to participate at the design 

and building of Miss Piggy, a Norwegian racing sailboat of 34 feet. The 

entire hull and deck was made of veneer glued together with West System 

epoxy. I loved the technique, the strength and lightweight of the 

material. I wouldn't have any objection building an aircraft in wood 

bounded together with that type of epoxy.

The technique of layering thin veneer glued together is, in fact, 

coming from aircraft floats, during the 30s. I believe it is called: 

cold moulding.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

avidsid(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: Epoxy

Years ago the Gougeons built a custom one off racing yacht for here in the Great Lakes of about 42' called "Golden Daisy".  Completely built with and coated in WEST system epoxis.  Of all wooden construction with the clear coating it was a beautiful testimony to wooden boat building and their awesome talents in the boating industry and wood working expertise.  Has won many trophies and awards in its class years ago.......will try to find a picture to send out to ya.............

  Sid

  been racing here on the Great Lakes myself for over 40 years.........yay, fresh water!     

  -------------------

   

  



Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe 



On Jun 10, 2006, at  11:36 PM, Sid Hausding wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jan Gougeon, one of the three brothers owning the WEST system 

 components and production facilities, is a homebuilder and flyer of an 

 RV-6..........they published several articles on using the West system 

 products in homebuilding of aircraft.


	


Twenty-six years ago, I had the pleasure to participate at the design 

and building of Miss Piggy, a Norwegian racing sailboat of 34 feet. The 

entire hull and deck was made of veneer glued together with West System 

epoxy. I loved the technique, the strength and lightweight of the 

material. I wouldn't have any objection building an aircraft in wood 

bounded together with that type of epoxy.

The technique of layering thin veneer glued together is, in fact, 

coming from aircraft floats, during the 30s. I believe it is called: 

cold

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: Epoxy

Do they ?  Are the  tanks made of HDPE or some other plastic?  Are the tanks vulcanized on the  inside??

  

 In this neck of the woods any  one buying a service station has to have a ground toxicity test done.  If  there are any residues in the ground all the offending soils have to be dug up  and trucked away to a toxic land fill.  Service stations that have been in  business since the thirties are closing in droves.  Just wait until one of  the plastic cisterns decomposes!!!

  

  

 

Noel  	  Quote: 	
		     

     I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Epoxy

At 06:39 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At 06:21 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

>At 03:21 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

>>...to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.

>

>Actually most chemical tanks, including gas station tanks are made from 

>fiberglass / polyester or vinylester resin. I gave a quick shot at 

>tracking down a resin formulation but didn't get anywhere. I will try 

>some of my industry contacts to see if I can get a source.



OK I've traced down one source for a vinylester resin. Using 

Interplastic's "Resin Wizard" I was able to find six gasoline compatible 

vinylesters. One, 8730, indicates it's particularly suitable for alcohols. 

I'll keep looking.


	


Forgot the link:



http://www.interplastic.com/html/resinwizard.asp

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Epoxy

At 06:21 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At 03:21 PM 6/9/2006, you wrote:

>...to Ethanol???  I mean, GAS STATIONS have epoxy tanks.



Actually most chemical tanks, including gas station tanks are made from 

fiberglass / polyester or vinylester resin. I gave a quick shot at 

tracking down a resin formulation but didn't get anywhere. I will try some 

of my industry contacts to see if I can get a source.


	


OK I've traced down one source for a vinylester resin. Using Interplastic's 

"Resin Wizard" I was able to find six gasoline compatible vinylesters. One, 

8730, indicates it's particularly suitable for alcohols. I'll keep looking.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

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