Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - center stick question

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

center stick question

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> KIS-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:49 am Post subject: center stick question

4/17/2013



Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that 

I am going to be using."



I am not familiar with this center stick modification. Can you please post a 

description of it, maybe even a picture, and tell us why you are using it?



Thanks,



OC



===============================================================================================



Time: 03:49:53 PM PST US

From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

Subject: Re: Re: door window



OC,=0A=0AI know that after this long period of time that many of the source

s will have =0Adried up but if we can locate those that are still out there

it will make life a =0Abit easier.=0A=0AVance also came up with the center

stick that I am going to be using.

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:06 am Post subject: center stick question

Owen,

  

 The why was to keep the KISS while still giving me the ability to have adjustable seats without a stick coming up between the legs.  I wanted to maintain the same dynamics as the controls in the original kit and didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.  I sketched out a couple of ideas and passed them to Vance who refined them and produced the final control.  It keeps the same push rod control for the elevator and just uses a couple of longer control rods for the connections to the aileron rocker arms.  It keeps it SIMPLE

  

 There is a drawing and a couple of photos at:

  

 http://www.kisbuild.onfinal18.com/MyControlStick.html#Control



 I didn't take any photos of the installation when I did the trial fit on the wings but everything worked as planned and all controls worked as designed.

  

 Bob

 

   From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To: robertr237(at)att.net; KIS-LIST MATRONICS <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 5:49:20 AM

Subject: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



4/17/2013



Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that I am going to be using."



I am not familiar with this center stick modification. Can you please post a description of it, maybe even a picture, and tell us why you are using  it?



Thanks,



OC



====================



Time: 03:49:53 PM PST US

From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

Subject: Re: Re: door window



OC,=0A=0AI know that after this long period of time that many of the source

s will have =0Adried up but if we can locate those that are still out there

it will make life a =0Abit easier.=0A=0AVance also came up with the center

stick that I am going to be using. 



= Photoshare, and much much avigator?KIS-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-L-> http://forum            - List Contribution Web Site -



 [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:28 am Post subject: center stick question

4/17/2013



Hello Bob Reed, Thanks for the quick response and the very interesting 

design modification. May I ask a few questions?



1) So the single center control stick is to the right of pilotâ€™s right leg 

and to the left  of the co pilotâ€™s left leg as they are seated in the 

cockpit?



2) If the answer to 1 is YES then the pilot really has normal access to the 

stick only with his right hand and the co pilot only has normal access to 

the stick with his left hand, correct?



3) Does it follow then that while flying the pilot must control the throttle 

with his left hand and the co pilot must control the throttle with his right 

hand?



4) If the answer to 3 is YES then the pilot and co pilot must each have 

access to a separate throttle control mounted either on the fuselage inside 

or on the far left and right corners of the instrument panel, correct?



5) And are you going to provide two separate side throttle controls?



6) When a right handed pilot is flying along with his kneeboard on top of 

his right thigh, his right hand on the center control stick, and ATC makes a 

radio transmission that the pilot must copy, how does he write it down?



Thanks for helping me understand your modification.



OC



PS: You wrote: â€œ....... didn't want the complications of the yoke system 

that you are using.â€



I have the standard control stick arrangement on my KIS TR-1 with the two 

control sticks coming up between the pilotâ€™s and co pilotâ€™s legs. I think 

that it was Al Rosa who installed a two yoke system in his KIS four place.



===========================================================================================



From: Robert Reed

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:05 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: center stick question



Owen,



The why was to keep the KISS while still giving me the ability to have 

adjustable seats without a stick coming up between the legs.  I wanted to 

maintain the same dynamics as the controls in the original kit and didn't 

want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.  I sketched 

out a couple of ideas and passed them to Vance who refined them and produced 

the final control.  It keeps the same push rod control for the elevator and 

just uses a couple of longer control rods for the connections to the aileron 

rocker arms.  It keeps it SIMPLE



There is a drawing and a couple of photos at:



http://www.kisbuild.onfinal18.com/MyControlStick.html#Control

I didn't take any photos of the installation when I did the trial fit on the 

wings but everything worked as planned and all controls worked as designed.



Bob



=====================================================================================



From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To: robertr237(at)att.net; KIS-LIST MATRONICS <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 5:49:20 AM

Subject: center stick question






4/17/2013



Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that 

I am going to be using."



I am not familiar with this center stick modification. Can you please post a 

description of it, maybe even a picture, and tell us why you are using it?



Thanks,



OC

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: center stick question

I went with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with your fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs, and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.   I love being able to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so those controls need to be on the left side of the panel. 



There is a picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would like to see it.



Scott





On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:28 AM, "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 4/17/2013

 

 Hello Bob Reed, Thanks for the quick response and the very interesting design modification. May I ask a few questions?

 

 1) So the single center control stick is to the right of pilotâ€™s right leg and to the left  of the co pilotâ€™s left leg as they are seated in the cockpit?

 

 2) If the answer to 1 is YES then the pilot really has normal access to the stick only with his right hand and the co pilot only has normal access to the stick with his left hand, correct?

 

 3) Does it follow then that while flying the pilot must control the throttle with his left hand and the co pilot must control the throttle with his right hand?

 

 4) If the answer to 3 is YES then the pilot and co pilot must each have access to a separate throttle control mounted either on the fuselage inside or on the far left and right corners of the instrument panel, correct?

 

 5) And are you going to provide two separate side throttle controls?

 

 6) When a right handed pilot is flying along with his kneeboard on top of his right thigh, his right hand on the center control stick, and ATC makes a radio transmission that the pilot must copy, how does he write it down?

 

 Thanks for helping me understand your modification.

 

 OC

 

 PS: You wrote: â€œ....... didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.â€

 

 I have the standard control stick arrangement on my KIS TR-1 with the two control sticks coming up between the pilotâ€™s and co pilotâ€™s legs. I think that it was Al Rosa who installed a two yoke system in his KIS four place.

 

 ===========================================================================================

 

 From: Robert Reed

 Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:05 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: center stick question

 

 Owen,

 

 The why was to keep the KISS while still giving me the ability to have adjustable seats without a stick coming up between the legs.  I wanted to maintain the same dynamics as the controls in the original kit and didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.  I sketched out a couple of ideas and passed them to Vance who refined them and produced the final control.  It keeps the same push rod control for the elevator and just uses a couple of longer control rods for the connections to the aileron rocker arms.  It keeps it SIMPLE

 

 There is a drawing and a couple of photos at:

 

 http://www.kisbuild.onfinal18.com/MyControlStick.html#Control

 I didn't take any photos of the installation when I did the trial fit on the wings but everything worked as planned and all controls worked as designed.

 

 Bob

 

 =====================================================================================

 

 From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 To: robertr237(at)att.net; KIS-LIST MATRONICS <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 5:49:20 AM

 Subject: center stick question

 

 

 

 4/17/2013

 

 Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that I am going to be using."

 

 I am not familiar with this center stick modification. Can you please post a description of it, maybe even a picture, and tell us why you are using it?

 

 Thanks,

 

 OC

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:22 am Post subject: center stick question

4/18/2013

  

 Hello Bob Reed, Thank you for the answers copied below. You wrote: 

  

 1) â€œActually shouldn't be  that difficult to keep a pad on the center console and write with right hand and  fly with left crossed over.

  

 â€œdifficultâ€ in any degree is not something that you  want to deliberately build into the controls of an aircraft. But there is a very  nice solution to the problem of providing full and appropriate access to a  center stick and that is the T bar cyclic design used in the Robinson  helicopters. See here:

  

 http://www.helicoptersonly.com/contents/en-us/p1600.html

  

 Or, if this URL does not come through, just google Robinson cyclic  control.

  

 Note that the portion of the horizontal T bar that extends over to the co  pilotâ€™s side can be quickly removed or replaced.

  

 2) â€œI have considered  separate controls for the throttle but the majority of my flying will be just me  and my wife or me alone.â€

  

 When building an experimental amateur built aircraft one should keep in  mind that someday yourself, your widow, or your children will be attempting to  sell the aircraft and the reaction of potential buyers to unusual configuration  features may affect its sales appeal.

  

 OC

  

 ===============================================

    

  From: Robert Reed (robertr237(at)att.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM

 To: Owen  Baker (bakerocb(at)cox.net) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  



   See Below:



 

   

 From: Owen Baker  <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com; robertr237(at)att.net

Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 11:28:18  AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:  center stick question



4/17/2013



Hello Bob Reed, Thanks for  the quick response and the very interesting design modification. May I ask a few  questions?



1) So the single center control stick is to the right of  pilotâ€™s right leg and to the left  of the co pilotâ€™s left leg as they are  seated in the cockpit?

  

 Correct!



2)  If the answer to 1 is YES then the pilot really has normal access to the stick  only with his right hand and the co pilot only has normal access to the stick  with his left hand, correct?



 Correct  again!

 

3) Does it follow then that while flying the pilot must  control the throttle with his left hand and the co pilot must control the  throttle with his right hand?



 Correct  again assuming dual throttle controls.

 

4) If the answer to 3  is YES then the pilot and co pilot must each have access to a separate throttle  control mounted either on the fuselage inside or on the far left and right  corners of the instrument panel, correct?



 YES!

 

5) And are you going to  provide two separate side throttle controls?



 NO!  I  have considered separate controls for the throttle but the majority of my flying  will be just me and my wife or me alone.  A separate throttle could be  incorporated if needed.

 

6) When a right handed  pilot is flying along with his kneeboard on top of his right thigh, his right  hand on the center control stick, and ATC makes a radio transmission that the  pilot must copy, how does he write it down?



Very Carefully!   Actually shouldn't be that difficult to keep a pad on the center console and  write with right hand and fly with left crossed over.  It's not like the  control stick will be out of reach on either side.  

  

 Thanks  for helping me understand your modification.



OC



PS: You wrote:  â€œ....... didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are  using.â€



I have the standard control stick arrangement on my KIS TR-1 with  the two control sticks coming up between the pilotâ€™s and co pilotâ€™s legs. I  think that it was Al Rosa who installed a two yoke system in his KIS four  place.



 Sorry, I  thought it was you for some reason.  Ted Scott was also using the yoke  system if I recall correctly this time.  

  

  

 

================



From:  Robert Reed

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:05 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:  Re: center stick question



Owen,



The why was to keep the  KISS while still giving me the ability to have adjustable seats without a stick  coming up between the legs.  I wanted to maintain the same dynamics as the  controls in the original kit and didn't want the complications of the yoke  system that you are using.  I sketched out a couple of ideas and passed  them to Vance who refined them and produced the final control.  It keeps  the same push rod control for the elevator and just uses a couple of longer  control rods for the connections to the aileron rocker arms.  It keeps it  SIMPLE



There is a drawing and a couple of photos at:



http://www.kisbuild.onfinal18.com/MyControlStick.html#Control

I  didn't take any photos of the installation when I did the trial fit on the wings  but everything worked as planned and all controls worked as  designed.



Bob



===================================



From:  Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

To: robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net); KIS-LIST MATRONICS  <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent:  Wed, April 17, 2013 5:49:20 AM

Subject: center stick  question



--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



4/17/2013



Hello  Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that I am  going to be using."



I am not familiar with this center stick  modification. Can you please post a description of it, maybe even a picture, and  tell us why you are using it?



Thanks,



OC  

   [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: center stick question

4/18/2013



Hello Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the 

fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air 

flow and elements?



OC



=================================================================================



From: Scott Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: center stick question






I went with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with 

your fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between 

your legs, and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.   I love 

being able to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are building will have a center stick and we may 

run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to open up as much interior 

space as possible.



Like OC said the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach 

the controls so you need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, 

etc with your left hand so those controls need to be on the left side of the 

panel.



There is a picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and 

autopilot on the far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the 

center-left.  Works great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would like to see 

it.



Scott

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:09 am Post subject: center stick question

Owen,

  

 If we were talking about a stick position that was more out of the way than just accross your lap I would fully agree but I have sat in my seats and done trials with the stick and using my left hand on it wasn't a problem.  I also didn't find any issues with using my left hand to reach the radio and other controls in the center position.  Since there are no obstructions such as the stick in your lap or the much larger yoke setup in the way, reaching anything on the pilot side is very easy.

  

 I have also considered that an easy fix if needed would be a short side extension to the stick that could be turned to either the pilot or copilot side when desired to turned to a forward position out of the way when not needed.  It would allow for basically the same positioning as the between the leggs stick.  I will look into this option if I encounter a problem with the center position.  



 As for the sales appeal for the future, I am building this plane for ME not someone else and while I may eventually need to sell it that is not my primary concern today.  I have thought about dual throttle controls but haven't been able to come up with a design that I thought would be effective without actually making the controls less safe.  I would welcome any design suggestions that would work without a huge amount of time and money.

  

 Bob

 

   From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>; KIS-LIST MATRONICS <kis-list(at)matronics.com>; sstearns2(at)yahoo.com

Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 9:22:22 AM

Subject: Re: center stick question



   4/18/2013

  

 Hello Bob Reed, Thank you for the answers copied below. You wrote: 

  

 1) â€œActually shouldn't be that difficult to keep a pad on the center console and write with right hand and fly with left crossed over.

  

 â€œdifficultâ€ in any degree is not something that you want to deliberately build into the controls of an aircraft. But there is a very nice solution to the problem of providing full and appropriate access to a center stick and that is the T bar cyclic design used in the Robinson helicopters. See here:

  

 http://www.helicoptersonly.com/contents/en-us/p1600.html

  

 Or, if this URL does not come through, just google Robinson cyclic control.

  

 Note that the portion of the horizontal T bar that extends over to the co pilotâ€™s side can be quickly removed or replaced.

  

 2) â€œI have considered separate controls for the throttle but the majority of my flying will be just me and my wife or me alone.â€

  

 When building an experimental amateur built aircraft one should keep in mind that someday yourself, your widow, or your children will be attempting to sell the aircraft and the reaction of potential buyers to unusual configuration features may affect its sales appeal.

  

 OC

  

 ======================

    

  From: Robert Reed (robertr237(at)att.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM

 To: Owen Baker (bakerocb(at)cox.net) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  



   See Below:



 

   

 From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com; robertr237(at)att.net

Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 11:28:18 AM

Subject: Re: center stick question



4/17/2013



Hello Bob Reed, Thanks for the quick response and the very interesting design modification. May I ask a few questions?



1) So the single center control stick is to the right of pilotâ€™s right leg and to the left  of the co pilotâ€™s left leg as they are seated in the cockpit?

  

 Correct!



2) If the answer to 1 is YES then the pilot really has normal access to the stick only with his right hand and the co pilot only has normal access to the stick with his left hand, correct?



 Correct again!

 

3) Does it follow then that while flying the pilot must control the throttle with his left hand and the co pilot must control the throttle with his right hand?



 Correct again assuming dual throttle controls.

 

4) If the answer to 3 is YES then the pilot and co pilot must each have access to a separate throttle control mounted either on the fuselage inside or on the far left and right corners of the instrument panel, correct?



 YES!

 

5) And are you going to provide two separate side throttle controls?



 NO!  I have considered separate controls for the throttle but the majority of my flying will be just me and my wife or me alone.  A separate throttle could be incorporated if needed.

 

6) When a right handed pilot is flying along with his kneeboard on top of his right thigh, his right hand on the center control stick, and ATC makes a radio transmission that the pilot must copy, how does he write it down?



Very Carefully!  Actually shouldn't be that difficult to keep a pad on the center console and write with right hand and fly with left crossed over.  It's not like the control stick will be out of reach on either side.  

  

 Thanks for helping me understand your modification.



OC



PS: You wrote: â€œ....... didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.â€



I have the standard control stick arrangement on my KIS TR-1 with the two control sticks coming up between the pilotâ€™s and co pilotâ€™s legs. I think that it was Al Rosa who installed a two yoke system in his KIS four place.



 Sorry, I thought it was you for some reason.  Ted Scott was also using the yoke system if I recall correctly this time.  

  

  

 

================



From: Robert Reed

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 10:05 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: center stick question



Owen,



The why was to keep the KISS while still giving me the ability to have adjustable seats without a stick coming up between the legs.  I wanted to maintain the same dynamics as the controls in the original kit and didn't want the complications of the yoke system that you are using.  I sketched out a couple of ideas and passed them to Vance who refined them and produced the final control.  It keeps the same push rod  control for the elevator and just uses a couple of longer control rods for the connections to the aileron rocker arms.  It keeps it SIMPLE



There is a drawing and a couple of photos at:



http://www.kisbuild.onfinal18.com/MyControlStick.html#Control

I didn't take any photos of the installation when I did the trial fit on the wings but everything worked as planned and all controls worked as designed.



Bob



===================================



From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

To: robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net); KIS-LIST MATRONICS <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Wed, April 17, 2013 5:49:20 AM

Subject: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



4/17/2013



Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: "Vance also came up with the center stick that I am going to be using."



I am not familiar with this center stick modification. Can you please post a description of it, maybe even a picture, and tell us why you are using it?



Thanks,



OC 

[quote]http://www.="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://for=========


[b]

fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: center stick question

OC,



Going one step further, a single "throw over" stick or yoke that is used in

some aircraft, would be better I think.



Al



On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:



[quote]   4/18/2013



 Hello Bob Reed, Thank you for the answers copied below. You wrote:



 1) “Actually shouldn't be that difficult to keep a pad on the center

 console and write with right hand and fly with left crossed over.



 “difficult” in any degree is not something that you want to deliberately

 build into the controls of an aircraft. But there is a very nice solution

 to the problem of providing full and appropriate access to a center stick

 and that is the T bar cyclic design used in the Robinson helicopters. See

 here:



 http://www.helicoptersonly.com/contents/en-us/p1600.html



 Or, if this URL does not come through, just google Robinson cyclic control.



 Note that the portion of the horizontal T bar that extends over to the co

 pilot’s side can be quickly removed or replaced.



 2) “I have considered separate controls for the throttle but the majority

 of my flying will be just me and my wife or me alone.”



 When building an experimental amateur built aircraft one should keep in

 mind that someday yourself, your widow, or your children will be attempting

 to sell the aircraft and the reaction of potential buyers to unusual

 configuration features may affect its sales appeal.



 OC



 ===============================================



  *From:* Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:46 PM

 *To:* Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 *Subject:* Re: center stick question



  See Below:



  ------------------------------

  *From:* Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 *To:* kis-list(at)matronics.com; robertr237(at)att.net

 *Sent:* Wed, April 17, 2013 11:28:18 AM

 *Subject:* Re: center stick question



 4/17/2013



 Hello Bob Reed, Thanks for the quick response and the very interesting

 design modification. May I ask a few questions?



 1) So the single center control stick is to the right of pilot’s right leg

 and to the left  of the co pilot’s left leg as they are seated in the

 cockpit?



 Correct!



 2) If the answer to 1 is YES then the pilot really has normal access to

 the stick only with his right hand and the co pilot only has normal access

 to the stick with his left hand, correct?

 Correct again!



 3) Does it follow then that while flying the pilot must control the

 throttle with his left hand and the co pilot must control the throttle with

 his right hand?

 Correct again assuming dual throttle controls.



 4) If the answer to 3 is YES then the pilot and co pilot must each have

 access to a separate throttle control mounted either on the fuselage inside

 or on the far left and right corners of the instrument panel, correct?

 YES!



 5) And are you going to provide two separate side throttle controls?

 NO!  I have considered separate controls for the throttle but the majority

 of my flying will be just me and my wife or me alone.  A separate throttle

 could be incorporated if needed.



 6) When a right handed pilot is flying along with his kneeboard on top of

 his right thigh, his right hand on the center control stick, and ATC makes

 a radio transmission that the pilot must copy, how does he write it down?



 Very Carefully!  Actually shouldn't be that difficult to keep a pad on the

 center console and write with right hand and fly with left crossed over.

 It's not like the control stick will be out of reach on either side.



 Thanks for helping me understand your modification.



 OC



 PS: You wrote: “....... didn't want the complications of the yoke system

 that you are using.”



 I have the standard control stick arrangement on my KIS TR-1 with the two

 control sticks coming up between the pilot’s and co pilot’s legs. I think

 that it was Al Rosa who installed a two yoke system in his KIS four place

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:34 am Post subject: center stick question

Hi OC,

 

Yes, but there would be a fairing running down the belly.  There would be a bellcrank under the baggage compartment floor to transition back to a tube inside the fuselage.  

 

Scott

     

   From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

  To: kis-list(at)matronics.com; sstearns2(at)yahoo.com 

 Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:28 AM

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



4/18/2013



Hello Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air flow and elements?



OC



===============================



From: Scott Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)>



I went with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very  comfortable to fly with your fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs, and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.   I love being able to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so those controls need to be on the left side of the panel.



There is a picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would like to see sp;            - List Contribution Web Site -

_;                        &nbs=================

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: center stick question

4/18/2013

  

 Hello Al Rosa, Some day the owner / primary pilot will be demonstrating  (for sale maybe), or instructing (formally or otherwise) while sitting in the  left pilot’s seat with the throw over control over on the co pilots side. 

  

 The co pilot / student / prospective buyer will do something so unexpected  (stupid) and sudden that before the throw over control can be returned to the  pilot for him to salvage the situation the aircraft will be damaged – or  worse.

  

 I have not seen everything in my 63 years of maintaining aircraft and 55  years of flying them, but I have seen enough to know that mighty bad unexpected  things can happen very quickly. It should be the builder’s goal to prevent such  events with sound design and construction.

  

 The Robinson T bar design always gives the pilot in command access to the  stick **and the removable section for the co pilot gives the option of having it  there or not.

  

 OC

  

 **PS: Even with that ready access to the control stick for the pilot in  command / instructor the history of the Robinson helicopter is filled with  accidents wherein the instructor / pilot in command was not quick enough to  salvage the situation. I believe that the number of Robinson helicopter  accidents would be at least triple the actual number of accidents if the design  had a throw over control.

  

 PPS: As an exercise in education one could google “throw over control  accidents”. Here is an extract from the accident report on just one of URL’s  that shows up:

  

 “Factors in the accident were the flight  instructor's inability to take remedial action because the airplane was not  equipped with a full set of dual flight controls.”

  

 ====================================

    

  From: ALFRED ROSA (fredorosa(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:59 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  



 OC,     

 Going one step further, a single "throw over" stick or yoke that is used in  some aircraft, would be better I think.

  

 Al



  



   [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: center stick question

4/18/2013

  

 Hello Robert Reed, Thanks for your response. You wrote:

  

 1) â€œI also didn't find any issues with using my left hand to reach the  radio and other controls in the center position.â€

  

 I understand and agree that there would be no issues if the cockpit is  designed for left handed access for the individual sitting in the left seat. My  primary concern is with the awkwardness / difficulty involved in right handed  writing on a knee board or center console writing pad while controlling the  airplane with a left arm crossed over (or under?) the right arm.

  

 2) â€œI have also considered that an easy fix if needed would be a short side  extension to the stick that could be turned to either the pilot or copilot side  when desired to turned to a forward position out of the way when not  needed.

  

 There is an easy inexpensive fix, but it is not some version of a throw  over control. Please see my response to Al Rosaâ€™s throw over control  suggestion.

  

 3) â€œI have also considered that an easy fix if needed would be a short side  extension to the stick.....â€ and â€œI would welcome any design suggestions that  would work without a huge amount of time and money.â€

  

 And that suggestion is to adapt something similar to the Robinson  helicopter pivoting horizontal T bar. Please check it out â€“ I say again: easy  and inexpensive.

  

 4) â€œI have thought about dual throttle controls but haven't been able to  come up with a design that I thought would be effective without actually making  the controls less safe.â€

  

 I understand and consider the dual throttle situation more difficult to  resolve than the center stick situation. I can offer no easy, inexpensive  solution.

  

 5) â€œAs for the sales appeal for the future, I am building this plane for ME  not someone else and while I may eventually need to sell it that is not my  primary concern today.â€

  

 Correct, not a primary concern, but also not something that should be  totally ignored if eventual acceptance to a buyer (sales appeal) can be  accommodated safely, easily, and inexpensively. But it may not be you that is  selling the airplane â€“ put yourself in the position of your widow or child who  is selling this airplane, hopefully, many years from now. ## The majority of  potential buyers want a level of comfort created by the familiar, ** not the  exotic or unusual that is off putting, or will require some effort on their part  to accept and â€œcorrectâ€ (in their mind).

  

 OC

  

 ##PS: For all KIS builders, owners, pilots -- please take a look into what  may be in the really far future, or not. When that proverbial beer truck  accidentally squashes you like a bug who is going to assist your widow with  demonstrating and assisting in selling your airplane? We have had some of our  EAA Chapter members who had built experimental amateur built airplanes pass  away. While none of their passings, so far, have been sudden and accidental the  problem of having some one capable of demonstrating and assisting the widow with  selling their airplanes was very real. My solution is to pick a friend that I  trust, and who was willing, put him on my (liability only) insurance policy, and  have him fly my KIS TR-1 about once a quarter so that he can conduct  demonstration flights if needed.

  

 **PPS: Look at the sales success of the Cirrus line of airplanes. It can  largely be attributed to the fact that the cockpit looks very much like the  Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Infinity, or other luxury automobile interiors that the  potential buyer is familiar with. (Yes, we have pilots, or would be pilots, who  are largely influenced by appearances alone â€“ check out some of the pilot error  Cirrus airplane accidents.)

  

 ===============================

  

  

 From: Robert Reed 

 Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:09 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  

 Owen,

  

 If we were talking about a stick position that was more out of the way than  just accross your lap I would fully agree but I have sat in my seats and done  trials with the stick and using my left hand on it wasn't a problem.  I  also didn't find any issues with using my left hand to reach the radio and other  controls in the center position.  Since there are no obstructions such as  the stick in your lap or the much larger yoke setup in the way, reaching  anything on the pilot side is very easy.

  

 I have also considered that an easy fix if needed would be a short side  extension to the stick that could be turned to either the pilot or copilot side  when desired to turned to a forward position out of the way when not  needed.  It would allow for basically the same positioning as the between  the leggs stick.  I will look into this option if I encounter a problem  with the center position.  

 As for the sales appeal for the future, I am building this plane for ME not  someone else and while I may eventually need to sell it that is not my primary  concern today.  I have thought about dual throttle controls but haven't  been able to come up with a design that I thought would be effective without  actually making the controls less safe.  I would welcome any design  suggestions that would work without a huge amount of time and money.

  

 Bob

  

  

   [quote][b]

gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:27 pm Post subject: center stick question

Hi Guys,

                   I reworked my Stick to lighten the adjust Aileron feel .. and to be able to have  my lapboard/Ipad etc on my lap .... also nice to have retracted for xcountry  with the wing leveler engaged etc too 

 Bit novel but works fine fine  .!

 Graham

  

 . 

  



  From: Scott Stearns (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com) 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 4:33 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

 



  Hi OC,

  

 Yes, but there would be a fairing running down the belly.  There  would be a bellcrank under the baggage compartment floor to transition back to a  tube inside the fuselage.  

  

 Scott

 



    

From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com); sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com) 

Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:28  AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:  center stick question



 

--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker "  <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



4/18/2013



Hello  Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to  open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside  the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air flow and  elements?



OC



===============================



From: Scott  Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:  Re: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by:  Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)>



I went  with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with your  fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs,  and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.  I love being able  to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are  building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under  the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said  the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you  need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so  those controls need to be on the left side of the panel.



There is a  picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the  far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works  great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would  like to see sp;           - List Contribution Web Site  -

_;                        &nbs=================



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

Stick_Extended_(2).jpg

Description:

Filesize:

142.72 KB

Viewed:

6063 Time(s)

Stick_Retracked.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

138.31 KB

Viewed:

6063 Time(s)

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: center stick question

Grahm, can you post some photos of your setup?



On Thursday, April 18, 2013, Graham Brighton  wrote:

[quote]      Hi Guys,

                   I reworked my Stick to lighten the adjust Aileron feel .. and to be able to have  my lapboard/Ipad etc on my lap .... also nice to have retracted for xcountry  with the wing leveler engaged etc too 

 Bit novel but works fine fine  ..!

 Graham

  

 . 

  



  From: [url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com');]Scott Stearns[/url] 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 4:33 AM

 To: [url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'kis-list(at)matronics.com');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url] 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

 



  Hi OC,

  

 Yes, but there would be a fairing running down the belly.  There  would be a bellcrank under the baggage compartment floor to transition back to a  tube inside the fuselage.  

  

 Scott

 



     

From: Owen Baker <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'bakerocb(at)cox.net');]bakerocb(at)cox.net[/url]>

To: [url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'kis-list(at)matronics.com');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url]; [url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com');]sstearns2(at)yahoo.com[/url] 

 Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:28  AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:  center stick question



 

--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker "  <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'bakerocb(at)cox.net');]bakerocb(at)cox.net[/url]>



4/18/2013



Hello  Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to  open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside  the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air flow and  elements?



OC



===============================



From: Scott  Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: [url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'kis-list(at)matronics.com');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

Subject:  Re: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by:  Scott Stearns <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com');]sstearns2(at)yahoo.com[/url]>



I went  with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with your  fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs,  and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.  I love being able  to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are  building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under  the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said  the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you  need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so  those controls need to be on the left side of the panel.



There is a  picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the  far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works  great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would  like to see sp;           - List Contribution Web Site  -

_;                        &nbs=================



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	


 [b]

gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: center stick question

G'day Galin,

                       Actually I attached a couple pics with my post ..... Can resend later when I get hm if u haven't received ... just a simple 'twist lock' telescope setup ... Haven't figured how to balance elevator feel though ... Luv to hear if anyone has a fix for that ...  ??

Graham

                       



Sent from my iPad



On 20/04/2013, at 3:20 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Grahm, can you post some photos of your setup?



On Thursday, April 18, 2013, Graham Brighton  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        Hi Guys,

                   I reworked my Stick to lighten  and adjust Aileron feel .. and to be able to have  my lapboard/Ipad etc on my lap .... also nice to have retracted for xcountry  with the wing  leveller  engaged tracking gps track etc too 

 Bit novel but works fine   ..!

 Graham

  

 . 

  



  From: [url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com\');]Scott Stearns[/url] 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 4:33 AM

 To: [url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'kis-list(at)matronics.com\');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url] 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

 



  Hi OC,

  

 Yes, but there would be a fairing running down the belly.  There  would be a bellcrank under the baggage compartment floor to transition back to a  tube inside the fuselage.  

  

 Scott

 



     

From: Owen Baker <[url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'bakerocb(at)cox.net\');]bakerocb(at)cox.net[/url]>

To: [url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'kis-list(at)matronics.com\');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url]; [url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com\');]sstearns2(at)yahoo.com[/url] 

 Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:28  AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:  center stick question



 

--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker "  <[url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'bakerocb(at)cox.net\');]bakerocb(at)cox.net[/url]>



4/18/2013



Hello  Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to  open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside  the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air flow and  elements?



OC



===============================



From: Scott  Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: [url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'kis-list(at)matronics.com\');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

Subject:  Re: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by:  Scott Stearns <[url=javascript:_e({}, \'cvml\', \'sstearns2(at)yahoo.com\');]sstearns2(at)yahoo.com[/url]>



I went  with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with your  fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs,  and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.  I love being able  to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are  building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under  the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said  the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you  need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so  those controls need to be on the left side of the panel.



There is a  picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the  far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works  great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would  like to see sp;           - List Contribution Web Site  -

_;                        &nbs=================



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	


 



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: center stick question

THANKS! I was viewing the e-mail on my iPad so I didn't see the attached pics. :O)

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)> wrote:

  [quote]G'day Galin,

                       Actually I attached a couple pics with my post ..... Can resend later when I get hm if u haven't received ... just a simple 'twist lock' telescope setup ... Haven't figured how to balance elevator feel though ... Luv to hear if anyone has a fix for that ...  ??

  Graham

                       



Sent from my iPad



On 20/04/2013, at 3:20 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Grahm, can you post some photos of your setup?



On Thursday, April 18, 2013, Graham Brighton  wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		          Hi Guys,

                   I reworked my Stick to lighten  and adjust Aileron feel .. and to be able to have  my lapboard/Ipad etc on my lap .... also nice to have retracted for xcountry  with the wing  leveller  engaged tracking gps track etc too 

 Bit novel but works fine   ..!

 Graham

  

 . 

  



  From: Scott Stearns 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 4:33 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

 



  Hi OC,

  

 Yes, but there would be a fairing running down the belly.  There  would be a bellcrank under the baggage compartment floor to transition back to a  tube inside the fuselage.  

  

 Scott

 



       

From: Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com; sstearns2(at)yahoo.com 

   Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:28  AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:  center stick question



 

--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker "  <bakerocb(at)cox.net>



4/18/2013



Hello  Scott, You wrote: ".... we may run the forward pitch tube under the fuselage to  open up as much interior space as possible."



Do you mean actually outside  the bottom of the fuselage exposed to the air flow and  elements?



OC



===============================



From: Scott  Stearns

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:25 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: center stick question



--> KIS-List message posted by:  Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>



I went  with a center stick on my TR-1.  It is very comfortable to fly with your  fore arm resting on the center console and not have the stick between your legs,  and your passengers legs, makes long trips a lot better.  I love being able  to fly with my iPad or my lunch in my lap.



The Cruiser Mark K and I are  building will have a center stick and we may run the forward pitch tube under  the fuselage to open up as much interior space as possible.



Like OC said  the big concideration is that only your right hand can reach the controls so you  need to be able to operate the radios, flaps, lights, etc with your left hand so  those controls need to be on the left side of the panel.



There is a  picture of my panel on Bob Reeds site showing the switches and autopilot on the  far left of the panel and the Garmin 430 on the center-left.  Works  great.



I can send picture of my center stick mechanism if anyone would  like to see sp;           - List Contribution Web Site  -

_;                        &nbs=================



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	


 



==========

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

==========

cs.com

==========

matronics.com/contribution

==========



	


	
  	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: center stick question

4/19/2013

  

 Hello Graham, You wrote: â€œHaven't figured how to balance elevator feel  though ... Luv to hear if anyone has a fix for that ...  ??â€

  

 What sort of balancing is needed for KIS TR-1 elevator feel?

  

 Thanks,

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ======================================

    

  From: Graham Brighton (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au) 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  



  G'day Galin,

                         Actually I attached a couple pics with my post ..... Can resend later when I get  hm if u haven't received ... just a simple 'twist lock' telescope setup ..  Haven't figured how to balance elevator feel though ... Luv to hear if anyone  has a fix for that ...  ??

 Graham

                         



Sent from my iPad

 

 



   [quote][b]

gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:59 am Post subject: center stick question

Hi OC,

              Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,

With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ... 



Where as elevators are mostly  light ..!? ..  In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!



Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way ..  but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference  ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally  light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr ....  Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,



Anyway am  happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad   etc ...,



Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,

Cheers

Graham

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: center stick question

I modified my elevator bellcrank with 3 sets of holes so i could adjust it if needed.  I fly with about 60% of the mechanical advantage as the stock set up and and I added 2" to the elevator chord.  Drilling a couple bolt holes in the bellcrank to reduce the mechanical advantage is pretty simple and should make a noticable improvement.

I also added a bob weight so as the G forces build up the weight adds forward stick force.  That helped a lot to smooth out turbulence and the airplane feels more solid during spirited maneuvering.  I really recommend the bob weight.  I have pics if anyone wants to see.  Very cheap and simple.

My ailerons are still a too heavy but much better matched to the elevator compared to factory setup.  

Far and away the best flying light airplane is a bonanza.  Especially the short wing ones.  The control harmony is perfect.  I will never understand why all light airplanes do not have that kind of control harmony concidering is was nearly the first modern light airplane.

Scott



On Apr 20, 2013, at 4:54 AM, Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)> wrote:



[quote]Hi OC,

              Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,

With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ... 

Where as elevators are mostly  light ..!? ..  In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!

Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way ..  but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference  ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally  light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr ....  Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,

Anyway am  happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad   etc ...,

Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,

Cheers

Graham 

.



Sent from my iPad



On 20/04/2013, at 1:36 PM, "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		       4/19/2013

  

 Hello Graham, You wrote: â€œHaven't figured how to balance elevator feel  though ... Luv to hear if anyone has a fix for that ...  ??â€

  

 What sort of balancing is needed for KIS TR-1 elevator feel?

  

 Thanks,

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ======================================

    

  From: Graham Brighton (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au) 

 Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: center stick question

  



  G'day Galin,

                         Actually I attached a couple pics with my post ..... Can resend later when I get  hm if u haven't received ... just a simple 'twist lock' telescope setup ...  Haven't figured how to balance elevator feel though ... Luv to hear if anyone  has a fix for that ...  ??

 Graham

                         



Sent from my iPad

 

 



    	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	






===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:18 am Post subject: center stick question

G'Day,

               Scott ... sounds like u have given this some thought too .. would luv to see any pics u have ... the bob weights sound a good idea ..but nor sure where u have them situated .!? 

Cheers

Graham

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> KIS-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum