Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Aileron setup
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron.



1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal?



2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods?



3) Am I the only one with this problem? I can't find anything in the archives about this...



Thanks in advance for any ideas...



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans-

  

 You talk about shortening the link rod.  I don't think that is what you mean.  You should have about 3/4 inch of adjustment on each end of the rod by screwing or unscrewing the rod end from the AN490HT8P.  I just did mine a couple of months ago and the limiting factor for me was the skin, which had to be carefully trimmed to permit the correct movement, but as far as the mechanism is concerned, you should be able to adjust it quite easily.  You also mention .7 too much.  You really need to use a bubble inclinometer to set them up.  If you are using the measurement to the wingtip, it can be off based on how far the aileron end is from it.  I don't know what is available there, but I picked up a very easy to use inclinometer at Home Depot here in the US and it made measuring the amount of travel a snap.

  

 Jim Puglise A-283 Punta Gorda, FL 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Frans Veldman" <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl> 



[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Frans Veldman" 

 

 The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too 

 much down movement. If I shorten the link rod (as recommended by the manual), 

 the down movement gets less, almost correct (now only 0.7 too much), but then 

 the up movement exceeds the upper limit. The left aileron is working ok. That 

 means: it does everything a bit less than the right aileron. 

 

 1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, 

 as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and 

 the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is 

&  gt; co   Brows   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The aileron setup procedure is driving me nuts. The right aileron has way too much down movement. 

   

Been there, done that. Mopre than once too 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   1) What could be causing this? I have set up everything according to the manual, as far as I know. I suspected that the distance between the aileron hinge and the bolt for the link rod would be incorrect, but after measuring it, it is correct for both ailerons. I'm puzzeled by this. Is it possible that one of the factory holes for one of the bell cranks is incorrectly positioned, so that the lever action for both ailerons isn't equal?



 2) How do I solve it? Is this something that I can tune away with one of the various link/push/connecting rods?



 Frans

Frans,
	


first adjust the link rod so that the aileron hits its own stop at the 

correct angle. Its the stops that control everything. Do that for both 

ailerons before the wings are rigged. Then set up the quick connect bell 

cranks so that they are vertical when the ailerons are neutral. Aim for 

neutral slightly up, there should be a bit of reflex on the trailing 

edge. Maybe 1/4" (6mm) at the TE.  Finally adjust the central links,

When adjusting the rod end fittings, make sure there is enough length of 

thread inserted into the fittings, about 1.5 X D

One more thing, get a second opinion on the above, long time since I did 

it 

Graham

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Frans and other frustrated riggers,

  

 Keep your frustration level lower by looking into my typical setup.   Done this way, I can rig a new Europa in about an hour.  If not it can take  all day.

  

 Laws for initial setup:

 The CS 08s and sticks must be vertical in the fuselage with the QD  vertical with all the push rods rigged and tight.

 The short link rod to the aileron is only set once at the full aileron  stop.

 Set your long push rods so that when the aileron is level, the quick  disconnect is 90 degrees to the line between the main spar pins.  If you  cannot rig the QD at the root to vertical with the aileron level, you have the  rod the wrong length, or an assembly error.

  

 The aileron mass balance arms must allow full down aileron travel of 22  degrees.  I make sure I have nearly 24 degrees to allow for  finishing.  If you cannot get 22 degrees down, you must decrease your up  stop accordingly.

  

 Aileron root closeouts must allow full aileron up and down without contact.  

  

 Now start your adjustments.

  

 1st.  Always set your stop in each wing to the up stop limit.  I  use 24 degrees (vice 25.5) from experience.  The aileron on your hinge  should show on the protractor 24 degrees (measured at the hinge) and the  short link rod set so the bell crank is hard against the up stop.  Do the  other wing the same way.

  

 2nd.  Rig the fuselage quick disconnects and sticks to vertical.

  

 3rd.  Rig the wings.  Shim your QDs to take out the slop in the  ailerons using phenolic or aluminum shims.  Typically I premake the shims  when I make the initial wing rig.  I just super glue them on for the  initial setup.  Remember, when you Redux the shims on, the Redux is nearly  1/64th of an inch, so compensate.

  

 4th.  With all slop removed, you should now be able to check the  positions of the ailerons.  If built by the book, they should be within 1/4  inch of level.  

  

 Important!  You adjust the long lateral rod to correct the  aileron to the center position, not the outer.  

  

 5th.  Disconnect the QD from the wing root and rotate the rod about 1  turn per 3/16 inch until the aileron is centered.

  

 Repeat for the other wing.

  

 With both wings rigged again, check your throw.  You should hear and  feel the aileron bell crank hit the up stop with the deflection of 24 degrees up  without the opposite mass balance arms hitting the skin of the opposite  wing.  Try it both ways. If the mass balance arms hit, you will have  to reduce the max throw or correct the arm.

  

 If you have the time and want more throw, reset the up stop to 25 degrees  and repeat.  I never do because your knees determine max aileron throw most  of the time.

  

 Some problems occur with stick movement when the aileron bell crank, CS 08,  in the fuselage binds against the pitch tube (especially with the stick aft) or  were not set vertical properly during build.  Moving the stick forward or  blocking the stabilator to level will allow you to continue the aileron  rig.

  

 It only took me about 8 aircraft trimmings to learn this.  Relax, it  is a bit more of a chore with a glider wing.

  

 Both wings do rig well and even limited to 24 degrees of up, you will be  delighted with the roll rate.

  

 Frans, for your situation it sounds like you need to just work the right  wing, but when in doubt, start over.

  

 Happy building and I hope it works out.  If you have a build error  which needs correcting, email me at budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com).

  

 Bud Yerly, 

 Custom Flight Creations

(813) 653-4989

 [quote]   ---

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

Thanks for all the advice. I will try again, but the desciptions look like what I have been doing so far. The points is, if I start with the QD's vertical, the link rods adjusted to the upper limit, I somehow end up with about 26 degrees down travel for the starboard aileron. As soon as I start correcting this by adjusting the link rod, it messes up all the other parameters, such as upper aileron limit, neutral setting etc and whatever I try, I can't get it right anymore.

The weather doesn't look promising today, so I can't get the airplane outside to try again.



BTW, I use the Europa factory sold digital level, and measure compared against the wing tip, i.e. neutral is the aileron parallel to the wing tip.



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for all the advice. I will try again, but the desciptions look like what I have been doing so far. The points is, if I start with the QD's vertical, the link rods adjusted to the upper limit, I somehow end up with about 26 degrees down travel for the starboard aileron. As soon as I start correcting this by adjusting the link rod, it messes up all the other parameters, such as upper aileron limit, neutral setting etc and whatever I try, I can't get it right anymore.

 The weather doesn't look promising today, so I can't get the airplane outside to try again.



 BTW, I use the Europa factory sold digital level, and measure compared against the wing tip, i.e. neutral is the aileron parallel to the wing tip.



 Frans

   

Frans
	


you must set the aileron upper limit first with the link rod, go for 24 

deg, as Bud said. Then set everything else.

Graham

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

The wheather was cooperating, so I started all over, exactly following Bud's guidlines.

When I rigged the wings, the result was indeed promising, with both ailerons nearly centered and throw within the limits. That is, the ailerons where slightly up together, and the down movement of the right aileron was just within the limit.

When I tried to center both ailerons, this also increased the down movement of the right aileron, causing it to exceed the limit. It proved to be almost impossible to get both ailerons down without causing the right aileron to get more than 22 degrees of down movement. 

The only way I could keep it within the limit was to shorten the link rod somewhat, giving it more up movement instead.

After a few hours of trying, the best I could come up with is the following:



Port aileron

Up 22.5

Down 20.4



Starboard aileron

Up 24.8

Down 21.9



Although everything is within the limits, there is some asymmetry in the maximum throw. I have no idea what is causing this, maybe an accumulation of all kind of things that are slightly off. The port aileron could use some more throw, while the starboard aileron should have less.



Should I worry about the result? Should I try fixing it by rebuilding some critical components? If so, what needs to be rebuild? I guess one of the bellcranks has one hole slightly off, so it has more (or less) lever action. Maybe I can fix it by putting the link bolt of the starboard aileron further away from the hinge?



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans

The starboard one looks OK, so adjust the port one.

Make sure both ailerons hit the UP stop. That is important. If one of 

them has the balance weight of the other aileron hitting the skin that 

is wrong.

Graham



Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 T



 Port aileron

 Up 22.5

 Down 20.4



 Starboard aileron

 Up 24.8

 Down 21.9



 Should I worry about the result? Should I try fixing it by rebuilding some critical components? If so, what needs to be rebuild? I guess one of the bellcranks has one hole slightly off, so it has more (or less) lever action. Maybe I can fix it by putting the link bolt of the starboard aileron further away from the hinge?



 Frans

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Graham Singleton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans

 The starboard one looks OK, so adjust the port one.

 Make sure both ailerons hit the UP stop. That is important. If one of

 them has the balance weight of the other aileron hitting the skin that

 is wrong.


	


But how to adjust the port one? If I allow more up movement there, the

starboard aileron will get more down movement, and exceed the maximum

allowable down movement.

Somehow I just can't get both ailerons moving the same amount. I started

twice right from the start, with finally the same results.



And I have no balance weights hitting the skin, as I don't have the skin

yet on. This is why I'm trying to get the ailerons adjusted, now I have

still easy access to all parts.



Thanks,

Frans

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Hi! Frans.

Just occurred to me .....are the bellcranks of equal leg, because if not

you may have one incorrect way round giving you unequal movements?

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans,



Could this be the answer you are seeking? I believe it was Graham who

discussed the importance of aileron drive pin alignment. If alignment is not

within a tight tolerance, adjustment of ailerons can be impossible.



Do a search on matronix with this exact phrase(without the dashes):

--drive pin is the main critical--



Regards,

Greg

p.s. Forgive me if this was already discussed, and I did not see it.



======================================================================

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

[quote:5072120439="gregf"]



Frans,



Could this be the answer you are seeking? I believe it was Graham who

discussed the importance of aileron drive pin alignment. If alignment is not

within a tight tolerance, adjustment of ailerons can be impossible.



Do a search on matronix with this exact phrase(without the dashes):

--drive pin is the main critical--



[/quote:5072120439]



Eh, if I try this, it will just come up with this thread. Do you have a direct link please?



frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

[quote:04b201de89="ptag.dev"]



Hi! Frans.

Just occurred to me .....are the bellcranks of equal leg, because if not

you may have one incorrect way round giving you unequal movements?

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



-----[/quote:04b201de89]



You mean that I might have mounted it incorrectly? I checked everything already, this is not the case. The error would then be much higher. I suspect the problem what I have is due to the accumulation of build- and part tolerances. If you are lucky consequitive tolerances cancel each other out, in my case they probably work in the same direction. Maybe I should just swap the bell cranks? 



I found that the starboard aileron drive pin is 1mm too close to the hinge. Could this be the cause?



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Hi! Frans

I may have "sold you a pup" I believe that the bell cranks are of equal

legs (no lever magnification) so don't "chase your tail" on that issue,

the problem you have just sparked me off in that direction! It's such a

long time since I went that way !

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG 



Do not archive.



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I found that the starboard aileron drive pin is 1mm too close to the hinge. Could this be the cause?



 Frans

   

It will certainly have an effect, so yes, it could be part of the cause.
	


I always tell people to make a jig using the hinge pin as a locator.

Graham

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Aileron setup

Hi Frans,



If you had tried it you would have gotten what I had already tested, which

would be another thread similar to the info at this link:



http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=4453164?KEYS=driv

e_pin_is_the_main_critical?LISTNAME=Europa?HITNUMBER=6?SERIAL=08204312475?SH

OWBUTTONS=YES



However, on closer inspection, I think you may have covered this already.



Regards,

Greg



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

[quote:3e04ab2bc2="gregf"]



If you had tried it you would have gotten what I had already tested, which

would be another thread similar to the info at this link:



[/quote:3e04ab2bc2]



I tried, honestly, but matronix came up with the message where you told me to search for this phrase. The direct link worked however, thanks!

The message was helpful. I will make a jig, compare both drive pins, and set one of them again if there is a difference.



Thanks!



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Aileron setup

Good luck!

Greg

DO NOT ARCHIVE



--

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Aileron setup

This is driving me insane !!!!!



    Alter a recent inspection, I have found I have too much down movement on both Ailerons ( 24 Degrees) I need to get it back to 20 degrees. 



OK set was completed as described in the manual. I have also setup on another day as described by Bud. 



 



OK I correct the down deflection to 20 degrees by shortening the aileron link rod, no problem, now the Ailerons are deflecting UP and not in neutral, No problem alter the length of the long wing push-rod to bring back to neutral. Re rig the aircraft and the Ailerons are back to 24 degrees deflection down again.



 



What am I doing wrong ?????



 



Aileron drive pins where setup with a jig (Thanks Graham) and both are  exactly the same.



 



HELP!!! 

 	  Quote:

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Aileron setup

I'm wondering what you are using for your neutral point.  I followed Bud's suggestion and came out on the money, but it did take a couple of tries before using his method.  Bud what’s you to use the bottom of the ailerons at the splint between ailerons and flaps.  I used an electronic type of level. 

The two angles in the fuselage have to be vertical.  Then the two angles on the wings have to be vertical.  Follow on out to the bell crank making sure you have full travel here and that the bellcrank is in neutral position.  The ailerons will be the last.  

I have read a number of the fellow Europa builders that fly with a little up aileron.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum