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Fuel tank question

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asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the

stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of

discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit

concerned.



Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written

by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to

support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like

solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.



Thanks in advance!!

asc23111964(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:53 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

Hi Andrew,

One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are going to 

use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at least 6 weeks?

The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent

With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to be in the new one.

Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this pre-soaking?

As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out.

Best Regards

Andy Cullum.

Sent from my iPhone



On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the

 stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of

 discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit

 concerned.

 

 Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written

 by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to

 support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like

 solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.

 

 Thanks in advance!!

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:55 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

Andrew,



What I did.

1. make a cradle of 2, locally 3 bid:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89148

The idea is: good support without local bonding / deformation stresses

Put in the cradle / tank combination as the manual describes for the 

bare tank:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89319

No glues / epoxies on the tank.

The treated tank (forgot which gas exactly) swells less, but now bonds 

well to epoxies, making the unmodified original way of installing unwise.

2. put in lock-up EPP strips before putting the cradle / tank 

combination in:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89154

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89398

The idea is: minimize motion.

3. after bonding de cockpit into the canoe fill the space between cradle 

and canoe with 2-component reasonably heavy polyurethane foam through 

the fuel outlet access holes (calibrate the action beforehand to avoid 

the tunnel and the exposed outboard tank surfaces)

This makes a port sandwich and a starboard sandwich - my version (Ron 

Parigoris' rather) of Bud's cork.

The idea is: make the stresses still more distributed and the whole 

installation stronger.



Jan de Jong

I have been on the verge of putting the top on for a while.

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

Hi Andrew 

 	"The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights." 

 	Here's my attempt at keeping the fuel inside the tank: 

 	http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28688 

 	Scuffed tunnel, 3 BID, plastic sheet and injected foam to support. 

 	Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 224

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back

over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the

initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.

The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.



DMcF



--

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the

attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank

can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able

to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am

gathering from these discussions.



More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is

made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,

LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat

familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different

materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and

nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different

polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever

figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.



On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back

 over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the

 initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.

 The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.



 DMcF



 --

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.

The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will have less swelling issues down the road.

Cheers,

Pete

On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 

 Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the

 attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank

 can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able

 to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am

 gathering from these discussions.

 More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is

 made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,

 LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat

 familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different

 materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and

 nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different

 polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever

 figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.

 On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back

> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the

> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.

> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.

> 

> DMcF

> 

> --

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:13 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Thanks Pete. I am just about to embark on that route. I haven't called

them yet, but I am considering Fluoro Seal (http://www.fluoroseal.com)

if they are willing to take small jobs. They have a facility that is

within an hour driving from me.



On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.



 The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will have less swelling issues down the road.



 Cheers,

 Pete





 On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:



> 

>

> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the

> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank

> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able

> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am

> gathering from these discussions.

>

> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is

> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,

> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat

> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different

> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and

> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different

> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever

> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.

>

> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

>> 

>>

>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back

>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the

>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.

>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.

>>

>> DMcF

>>

>> --

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:09 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.

	




Pete...and your kit # is...?...

thanks,

Fred



 [quote][b]

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:25 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Oops...should have included it in my sig....



a239



Indeed it *was* factory fourinated, albeit i have to assume to a lower level

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

PS -  the Europa factory obviously treats prior to finish cuts as well.....which pretty well negates the value of the process imho.

Cheers,

Pete

a239



On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

[quote]

On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.

	




Pete...and your kit # is...?...

thanks,

Fred



  	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:59 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed, w/ tank buried within of course...Fred

On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35  

	


 [quote][b]

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:18 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks

(#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was

$300 and per unit cost is $35.  If three or four of us can join, the

cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it

anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could

be worth thousands of dollars.



On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,

 w/ tank buried within of course...Fred



 On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:



  I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago

 to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35

i36u42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:45 pm Post subject: Fuel tank question

I am about to embark on a tank replacement. I don't have the tank yet but I'm interested, so contact me and tell me more. Brian Long

A124

On Sunday, July 7, 2013, Andrew Sarangan  wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <[url=javascript:;]asarangan(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks

 (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was

 $300 and per unit cost is $35.  If three or four of us can join, the

 cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it

 anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could

 be worth thousands of dollars.

 On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <[url=javascript:;]fklein(at)orcasonline.com[/url]> wrote:

 > Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,

 > w/ tank buried within of course...Fred

 >

 > On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:

 >

 >  I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago

 > to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35

 > 

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Hi Andrew,

If you do go ahead with it in the next month or two, and if you were interested (ie-if you had to ship further away than expected) I could ship my small 3Gallon tank to you in my Europa tank crate which you could then use, and when completed you could ship (at my cost of course) my little tank to an address in ogdensburg packaged simply in a cardboard box.

Just a thought. I could send you some pics of the crate.   If I were to participate, I'd have to bring the tank to osh and am leaving on the 23rd 

Btw, great to hear you resumed you build!  Funny how life keeps getting in the way....  Here too of course.

Cheers,

Pete

On Jul 7, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks

 (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was

 $300 and per unit cost is $35.  If three or four of us can join, the

 cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it

 anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could

 be worth thousands of dollars.

 On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,

> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred

> 

> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:

> 

> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago

> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:02 am Post subject: Fuel tank question

Apologies to the list......email was meant for Andrew only...

Cheers,

Pete

On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Andrew,

 If you do go ahead with it in the next month or two, and if you were interested (ie-if you had to ship further away than expected) I could ship my small 3Gallon tank to you in my Europa tank crate which you could then use, and when completed you could ship (at my cost of course) my little tank to an address in ogdensburg packaged simply in a cardboard box.

 Just a thought. I could send you some pics of the crate.   If I were to participate, I'd have to bring the tank to osh and am leaving on the 23rd 

 Btw, great to hear you resumed you build!  Funny how life keeps getting in the way....  Here too of course.

 Cheers,

 Pete

 On Jul 7, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks

> (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was

> $300 and per unit cost is $35.  If three or four of us can join, the

> cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it

> anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could

> be worth thousands of dollars.

> 

> 

> 

> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

>> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,

>> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred

>> 

>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:

>> 

>> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago

>> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35

>> 

> 

> 

> 

>

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