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Professional Build Assist or Build to Order

 
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AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Let me go on record that ever since (actually before) biblical times, women began providing services to men “outside of marriage” and the word “professional “ has been bastardized for the monetary benefit of the few.
We now have people claiming “Professional Build”. Offering to build or sell you “Professionally Built Aircraft”. “Choose which flavor of the month we can offer which will motivate you to pay us money for our services – We will provide you that service – We promise”. A profession should be a group of people following a line of conduct as though it was Professional, or a calling requiring Specialized Knowledge and training often long and Intensive Academic Preparation, or engaged in one of the learned professions such a my doctors, lawyer, accountant, structural engineer, architect and real estate broker or better yet “conforming to ethically standards of a profession”. I am all for a method to establish who is a professional builder out their. Are You? Do we want a Professional Build Program? Do we quietly look the other way while the working guys and gals claim “professional” and take the money and run.
There are few builders who could meet such a definition, Dave Saylor may just be one who by his body of work, ethic and training might establish a benchmark. He is the only voice we have in the sea of manufacturers trying to sell more product and make more dollars for themselves who also serves our interest on the ARC. Builders who ethically manipulate the 51% rule to “Build to Order” are not such Professionals they are prostitutes (IMHO).

The result of such work may (I think - Will) lead to statistically adulterated insurance rates for the individual OBAM aircraft which have benefited by the 51% directive. It should come as no surprise with the increased sophistication of our aircraft systems that someone building them (Us RV-10 builders) needed training, academic preparation and some modicum of ethics. Paying for IT, does not make it Professional, it makes it a bastardized product. Before I answer Paul’s request for clarification on what I think of the ARC, I thought I would clear the air before wasting more bandwidth.
We are about to get what we deserve from the 51% Committee, I would like to think that as a group, we would like to see the private individuals who build, continue to do so and prosper. I hold a lot of respect for Real Builders. I would like to think we all would be willing to contribute to helping increase the margin of safety with our product. To use that redneck media guy’s tagline from the “Fair and Balanced Network” - “What say You?”
Here is a teaser as to where I am going, Paul. Builder’s who build should be allowed to continue to modify, maintain and inspection for the confirmation of continued safe operation their own personally registered and personally built aircraft – not that of any others. Certainly not “Build to Order”. Builder’s who sell, loose that specific Repairman Certificate upon the Sale, but they retain the right to sell it and to continue to build future OBAM. When individual’s who did not build it buy it, they would have to get a professionally qualified A & P mechanic with current IA endorsement to complete the inspection for continued safe operation and for the protection of the General Public – oh yeh, and they cannot maintain it either cause they are not of sufficient knowledge and training. We do not need increased insurance rates. We do not need more restrictive regulations. We need more and higher ethics in the Build process. We need to support guys like Tim Olson and the sharing of information to improve our own group, from within.

I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for 2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless generosity, tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of knowledge for safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group) and I am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.

John Cox
#40600
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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Ack!!!!! I certainly don't see myself as deserving of such
a thing. I'm just trying to pass on some info that helps
people over the bumps and gather some good tips. There are
far more deserving people out there to be sure.

I should have taken my ham sandwhich out of my mouth before
I read that ending...I almost choked. Wink (but thanks
John for the compliment)

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John W. Cox wrote:
Quote:
Let me go on record that ever since (actually before) biblical times,
women began providing services to men “outside of marriage” and the word
“professional “ has been bastardized for the monetary benefit of the few.

We now have people claiming “Professional Build”. Offering to build or
sell you “Professionally Built Aircraft”. “Choose which flavor of the
month we can offer which will motivate you to pay us money for our
services – We will provide you that service – We promise”. A profession
should be a group of people following a line of conduct as though it was
Professional, or a calling requiring Specialized Knowledge and training
often long and Intensive Academic Preparation, or engaged in one of the
learned professions such a my doctors, lawyer, accountant, structural
engineer, architect and real estate broker or better yet “conforming to
ethically standards of a profession”. I am all for a method to
establish who is a professional builder out their. Are You? Do we want
a Professional Build Program? Do we quietly look the other way while the
working guys and gals claim “professional” and take the money and run.

There are few builders who could meet such a definition, Dave Saylor may
just be one who by his body of work, ethic and training might establish
a benchmark. He is the only voice we have in the sea of manufacturers
trying to sell more product and make more dollars for themselves who
also serves our interest on the ARC. Builders who ethically manipulate
the 51% rule to “Build to Order” are not such Professionals they are
prostitutes (IMHO).

The result of such work may (I think - Will) lead to statistically
adulterated insurance rates for the individual OBAM aircraft which have
benefited by the 51% directive. It should come as no surprise with the
increased sophistication of our aircraft systems that someone building
them (Us RV-10 builders) needed training, academic preparation and some
modicum of ethics. Paying for IT, does not make it Professional, it
makes it a bastardized product. Before I answer Paul’s request for
clarification on what I think of the ARC, I thought I would clear the
air before wasting more bandwidth.

We are about to get what we deserve from the 51% Committee, I would like
to think that as a group, we would like to see the private individuals
who build, continue to do so and prosper. I hold a lot of respect for
Real Builders. I would like to think we all would be willing to
contribute to helping increase the margin of safety with our product. To
use that redneck media guy’s tagline from the “Fair and Balanced
Network” - “What say You?”

Here is a teaser as to where I am going, Paul. Builder’s who build
should be allowed to continue to modify, maintain and inspection for the
confirmation of continued safe operation their own personally registered
and personally built aircraft – not that of any others. Certainly not
“Build to Order”. Builder’s who sell, loose that specific Repairman
Certificate upon the Sale, but they retain the right to sell it and to
continue to build future OBAM. When individual’s who did not build it
buy it, they would have to get a professionally qualified A & P mechanic
with current IA endorsement to complete the inspection for continued
safe operation and for the protection of the General Public – oh yeh,
and they cannot maintain it either cause they are not of sufficient
knowledge and training. We do not need increased insurance rates. We
do not need more restrictive regulations. We need more and higher
ethics in the Build process. We need to support guys like Tim Olson and
the sharing of information to improve our own group, from within.

I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for
2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless generosity,
tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of knowledge for
safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group) and I
am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.

John Cox

#40600

*


*


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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Always interesting to read your thoughts John. I am in agreement! Tim has been a strong force of the Homebuilder and should receive kudos for his efforts. He has played a strong component in my planning and enthusiasm to build a RV-10.
He'll get my vote!


Pascal

DO NOT ARCHIVE
[quote] From: John W. Cox (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order



Let me go on record that ever since (actually before) biblical times, women began providing services to men “outside of marriage” and the word “professional “ has been bastardized for the monetary benefit of the few.
We now have people claiming “Professional Build”. Offering to build or sell you “Professionally Built Aircraft”. “Choose which flavor of the month we can offer which will motivate you to pay us money for our services – We will provide you that service – We promise”. A profession should be a group of people following a line of conduct as though it was Professional, or a calling requiring Specialized Knowledge and training often long and Intensive Academic Preparation, or engaged in one of the learned professions such a my doctors, lawyer, accountant, structural engineer, architect and real estate broker or better yet “conforming to ethically standards of a profession”. I am all for a method to establish who is a professional builder out their. Are You? Do we want a Professional Build Program? Do we quietly look the other way while the working guys and gals claim “professional” and take the money and run.
There are few builders who could meet such a definition, Dave Saylor may just be one who by his body of work, ethic and training might establish a benchmark. He is the only voice we have in the sea of manufacturers trying to sell more product and make more dollars for themselves who also serves our interest on the ARC. Builders who ethically manipulate the 51% rule to “Build to Order” are not such Professionals they are prostitutes (IMHO).

The result of such work may (I think - Will) lead to statistically adulterated insurance rates for the individual OBAM aircraft which have benefited by the 51% directive. It should come as no surprise with the increased sophistication of our aircraft systems that someone building them (Us RV-10 builders) needed training, academic preparation and some modicum of ethics. Paying for IT, does not make it Professional, it makes it a bastardized product. Before I answer Paul’s request for clarification on what I think of the ARC, I thought I would clear the air before wasting more bandwidth.
We are about to get what we deserve from the 51% Committee, I would like to think that as a group, we would like to see the private individuals who build, continue to do so and prosper. I hold a lot of respect for Real Builders. I would like to think we all would be willing to contribute to helping increase the margin of safety with our product. To use that redneck media guy’s tagline from the “Fair and Balanced Network” - “What say You?”
Here is a teaser as to where I am going, Paul. Builder’s who build should be allowed to continue to modify, maintain and inspection for the confirmation of continued safe operation their own personally registered and personally built aircraft – not that of any others. Certainly not “Build to Order”. Builder’s who sell, loose that specific Repairman Certificate upon the Sale, but they retain the right to sell it and to continue to build future OBAM. When individual’s who did not build it buy it, they would have to get a professionally qualified A & P mechanic with current IA endorsement to complete the inspection for continued safe operation and for the protection of the General Public – oh yeh, and they cannot maintain it either cause they are not of sufficient knowledge and training. We do not need increased insurance rates. We do not need more restrictive regulations. We need more and higher ethics in the Build process. We need to support guys like Tim Olson and the sharing of information to improve our own group, from within.

I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for 2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless generosity, tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of knowledge for safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group) and I am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.

John Cox
#40600
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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ddddsp1(at)juno.com
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee.  He is deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!
Dean 40449

________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
[quote][b]


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Ugh!! It keeps getting worse!! Al Gore?? Rush Limbaugh??? Now that's
no compliment!! Nobody has to give any praise, but no more insults
either! Wink (yes, I'm laughing)
Tim

absolutely whatever you do...DO NOT ARCHIVE anything with my name
tied to Al Gore or Rush Limbaugh. Wink

ddddsp1(at)juno.com wrote:
Quote:
I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al
Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee. He is
deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders
available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is
truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!

Dean 40449



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AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

You should have never crossed the line and helped with the axle
extensions project or a search engine on your website. It might have
been the vision of your young labor force packaging those gifts. No
aircraft is more significant to OBAM than an IFR capable RV-10. The
rocket may get more headlines, the Epic LT more FAA scrutiny, the
Lancair more insurance notice but the RV-10 now that is and will remain
the King of the OBAM jungle.

I can't think of anyone with more of a tangible contribution to
education, leader, safety, innovation, technical contribution that is
either living or deceased (just to restate their nomination procedure).
And humble to boot. Now keep your health up for Camp Condrey in July.

John Cox
#40600
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AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Al Gore, Michael Moore, Franken, Limbaugh, King and O’Reilly… oh, lord, what have I started.

John Cox
#40600


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order


I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee. He is deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!
Dean 40449


________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. [quote] [b]


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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Completely meaningless to other than American brothers.

Please remember the list is an international community. Smile

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Quote:
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 13 March 2007 7:07 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order


Al Gore, Michael Moore, Franken, Limbaugh, King and O’Reilly… oh, lord, what have I started.

John Cox
#40600


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order


I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee. He is deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!
Dean 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
0
Quote:
1
Quote:
2
Quote:
3
Quote:
4
Quote:
5
[quote][b]


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mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

I think he is really sweet on Ann Coulter.


Quote:
From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:37:10 -0700

Al Gore, Michael Moore, Franken, Limbaugh, King and O'Reilly... oh,
lord, what have I started.

John Cox
#40600

________________________________

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order

I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al
Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee. He is
deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders
available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is
truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!

Dean 40449

________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
<http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/fron
t.htm?csp 4>



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Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month.
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

No Ron, they are completely meaningless to most Americans too. HA!

Michael
Do not archive

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:06 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order



Completely meaningless to other than American brothers.

Please remember the list is an international community. Smile

DO NOT ARCHIVE
Quote:



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 13 March 2007 7:07 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order
Al Gore, Michael Moore, Franken, Limbaugh, King and O’Reilly… oh, lord, what have I started.

John Cox
#40600



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order


I was going to nominate TIM Olson for a NOBEL prize to compete with Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh instead of a lowly Hall of Fame nominee. He is deserving of the honor..............BTW he did make the Axle extenders available to countries overseas as well as Canada and Mexico. He is truly an INTERNATIONAL Peace maker!
Dean 40449


________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
Quote:
<a-->="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<a-->="">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[/b]_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com</==================
0
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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

That's what happens to "Peacekeepers" (Like Cops). Tim, I believe qualifies as a "PIECE maker". 8*) KABONG Do Not Archive
[quote] ---


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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

Come on Ron, everyone knows the academy award winning Al Gore, after all he created the internet we use everyday! and Michael Moore, you gotta know him as one of the best film makers ever....Not!!
Dan
N289DT
[quote]
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james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Professional Build Assist or Build to Order Reply with quote

John,
Great post and well reasoned approach, keeps the OBAM principle
pretty much as is while eliminating a part of the "hired gun" problem.

As a wanna-be builder (hopefully will be turning that into builder
status soon), I support TIm Olson's nomination. He's probably done
more to inspire future RV-10 builders than any single person by doing
a simple, sometimes daunting task of collecting and diseminating
relavent infromation about building his and other great RV-10's.
Without his webpages (and those of others he links to), I think my
preparatory work and insiration would be rather lacking.

Kevin Hovis

builder soon!!
On 3/12/07, John W. Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:
Quote:
Let me go on record that ever since (actually before) biblical times,
women began providing services to men "outside of marriage" and the word
"professional " has been bastardized for the monetary benefit of the
few.

We now have people claiming "Professional Build". Offering to build or
sell you "Professionally Built Aircraft". "Choose which flavor of the
month we can offer which will motivate you to pay us money for our
services - We will provide you that service - We promise". A profession
should be a group of people following a line of conduct as though it was
Professional, or a calling requiring Specialized Knowledge and training
often long and Intensive Academic Preparation, or engaged in one of the
learned professions such a my doctors, lawyer, accountant, structural
engineer, architect and real estate broker or better yet "conforming to
ethically standards of a profession". I am all for a method to
establish who is a professional builder out their. Are You? Do we want
a Professional Build Program? Do we quietly look the other way while the
working guys and gals claim "professional" and take the money and run.

There are few builders who could meet such a definition, Dave Saylor may
just be one who by his body of work, ethic and training might establish
a benchmark. He is the only voice we have in the sea of manufacturers
trying to sell more product and make more dollars for themselves who
also serves our interest on the ARC. Builders who ethically manipulate
the 51% rule to "Build to Order" are not such Professionals they are
prostitutes (IMHO).

The result of such work may (I think - Will) lead to statistically
adulterated insurance rates for the individual OBAM aircraft which have
benefited by the 51% directive. It should come as no surprise with the
increased sophistication of our aircraft systems that someone building
them (Us RV-10 builders) needed training, academic preparation and some
modicum of ethics. Paying for IT, does not make it Professional, it
makes it a bastardized product. Before I answer Paul's request for
clarification on what I think of the ARC, I thought I would clear the
air before wasting more bandwidth.

We are about to get what we deserve from the 51% Committee, I would like
to think that as a group, we would like to see the private individuals
who build, continue to do so and prosper. I hold a lot of respect for
Real Builders. I would like to think we all would be willing to
contribute to helping increase the margin of safety with our product. To
use that redneck media guy's tagline from the "Fair and Balanced
Network" - "What say You?"

Here is a teaser as to where I am going, Paul. Builder's who build
should be allowed to continue to modify, maintain and inspection for the
confirmation of continued safe operation their own personally registered
and personally built aircraft - not that of any others. Certainly not
"Build to Order". Builder's who sell, loose that specific Repairman
Certificate upon the Sale, but they retain the right to sell it and to
continue to build future OBAM. When individual's who did not build it
buy it, they would have to get a professionally qualified A & P mechanic
with current IA endorsement to complete the inspection for continued
safe operation and for the protection of the General Public - oh yeh,
and they cannot maintain it either cause they are not of sufficient
knowledge and training. We do not need increased insurance rates. We
do not need more restrictive regulations. We need more and higher
ethics in the Build process. We need to support guys like Tim Olson and
the sharing of information to improve our own group, from within.

I will be nominating Tim Olson for the EAA Homebuilders Hall of Fame for
2007 and wanted to announce it right here (for his selfless generosity,
tireless efforts and investment in time and the sharing of knowledge for
safer OBAM aircraft and the safe growth of our remarkable group) and I
am declaring it right now. Get back to Work.
John Cox
#40600


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