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CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Hey all –   

   

Just thought I’d take an informal poll to see whether people were having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of them?  More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.  Plastic brake lines?  The race car builder in me says “nope”.  The airplane builder in me says “I have no clue whether this will break or not”.  Somebody got the straight poop out there?  

   

cj  

#40410  

fuse  

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net  

    	  Quote: 	
		   	


      [quote][b]

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Have had them in an RV6 for 13 years without any problems.  Using them on the RV10 expecting the same.  If it is not broken, don't fix it!



Do not archive.



On Mar 13, 2007, at 6:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hey all –

 

Just thought I’d take an informal poll to see whether people were having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of them?  More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.  Plastic brake lines?  The race car builder in me says “nope”.  The airplane builder in me says “I have no clue whether this will break or not”.  Somebody got the straight poop out there?

 

cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

  	  Quote: 	
		            - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List              - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -  class="Apple-converted-space">   --> http://forums.matronics.com

mike(at)learningplanet.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

I'm not sure of the long-term durability of the plastic brake lines, but they do serve as one important safety feature. Because they are opaque you can see the red brake fluid inside and you can tell if you have air in the system. 

Regards,

Mike Schipper

#40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com

RV-9A - N63MS - Flying

 

On Mar 13, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hey all –

 

Just thought I’d take an informal poll to see whether people were having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of them?  More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.  Plastic brake lines?  The race car builder in me says “nope”.  The airplane builder in me says “I have no clue whether this will break or not”.  Somebody got the straight poop out there?

 

cj

#40410

fuse

www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

  	  Quote: 	
		            - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List              - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -  class="Apple-converted-space">   --> http://forums.matronics.com

mattreeves(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Lancair Boy's input,

   

  Several documented Lancair cases of plastic brake lines MELTING because of excessive heat at the wheels.  Causes bad steering problems and a few wrecks.  I used braided SSteel flex lines for the last 2 feet to the wheel itself and have had no problems with the plastic.  I do use a polyurethane fuel tubing over the plastic tube where it might chafe (like on a hot day at Oshkosh in my underpants)!   

   

  Just a protective tube over it where you feel it's necessary or might rub on something.  Other than that, use it - it's easy, cheap and works.  Some people say that after ten years or so, you it might crumble but I've had mine for ten years with no problems.

   

  My brother, in his RV-7A, uses braided SSteel through and through.  Whatever makes you happy.

   

  Matt Reeves

  Rochester,  NY



Michael Schipper <mike(at)learningplanet.com> wrote:

  [quote]I'm not sure of the long-term durability of the plastic brake lines, but they do serve as one important safety feature. Because they are opaque you can see the red brake fluid inside and you can tell if you have air in the system.   

  Regards,

  Mike Schipper

  #40576 - Wings - www.rvten.com

  RV-9A - N63MS - Flying

   

      On Mar 13, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Chris Johnston wrote:

  [quote]    Hey all –<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

   

  Just thought I’d  take an informal poll to see whether people were having troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think of them?  More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.  Plastic brake lines?  The race car builder in me says “nope”.  The airplane builder in me says “I have no clue whether this will break or not”.  Somebody got the straight poop out there?

   

  cj

  #40410

  fuse

  www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

   

[quote] [b]         - The RV10-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List          Don't pick lemons.

 See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. [quote][b]

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Had them in my -6 since 1998 with no problems and having them in the  10 flying.  I think the design was fairly well thought out.  The lines  on the pilot pedals are braided.  Also the lines going to the wheels are  not plastic.

 Anh

 [quote]   ---

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Chris,



I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3 brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind to me to do this upgrade.



go to www.anplumbing.com



type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take you to the page for these lines. "63010112"

 



After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled makes my finger tips happy!!



Rick S.

40185

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

It does seem a little rinky-dink at first look, but we have not had any

problems with them.  Interesting that they go out of the right pedals with

plastic but out of the left pedals with those big metal-braided lines. 

Anyway, we have had no problems, but I don't know what will happen in

10-20 years.  I haven't heard any general outcry from other RV builders

who have had planes flying for years and years about them, and I think

Van's has used them for quite a while, so my guess is they hold up fairly

well, especially as long as they are hidden from the sun and things like

that.  They are also very easy and cheap to replace when needed.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

C: 352-427-0285



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hey all -



 Just thought I'd take an informal poll to see whether people were having

 troubles with their plastic brake lines, or in general what people think

 of them?  More and more I get the sense that the Vans design on some

 stuff can be summed up as simple, light, and effective when it works.

 Plastic brake lines?  The race car builder in me says "nope".  The

 airplane builder in me says "I have no clue whether this will break or

 not".  Somebody got the straight poop out there?



 cj

 #40410

 fuse

 www.perfectlygoodairplane.net

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

My RV-4 is kit #313, flying since 1989 and has the plastic brake lines.

No problems.



Jack Phillips

#40610

--

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Guys, 

Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of the brake system broke?  Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red fluid.  Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough fluid for at least one brake application from the pilot position.  The plastic portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a failure of the entire system.  Certainly other than plastic tube is great, but worth the change from the stock design? Ah? 

Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious added value.Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 

   

--> RV10-List message posted by: Rick Chris,I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3 brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind to me to do this upgrade.go to www.anplumbing.comtype this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take you to the page for these lines. "63010112"After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled makes my finger tips happy!!Rick S.40185    [quote][b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Where in this system is the one way valve located(Backflow device)?



In otherwards, when the pedal is pressed does the pressure only go out of 

the the bottom fitting in the cylinder or is the backflow valve in the base 

of the brake fluid reservior.



John G.



Do NOt Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>, <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:28:05 -0500



Guys,



Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of the 

brake system broke?  Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the 

co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red fluid.  

Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough fluid 

for at least one brake application from the pilot position.  The plastic 

portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a 

failure of the entire system.  Certainly other than plastic tube is great, 

but worth the change from the stock design? Ah?



Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious added 

value.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



----------------------------------------



  



Chris,



I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you 

stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3 

brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind to 

me to do this upgrade.



go to www.anplumbing.com



type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take you 

to the page for these lines. "63010112"



After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled 

makes my finger tips happy!!



Rick S.

4=====

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Not sure I understand your question but here is a schematic of the Matco brake master cylinder.  <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/MC-4A_install.jpg 

  

This is roughly the RV-10 system, just with the pilot and co-pilot position reversed.  No check valves (anti “backflow device”). 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder20a.jpg 

  

If the plastic portion was to break, as long as there was some fluid in them, they would effectively become mini-individual fluid reservoirs.  The important lines are the last lines leaving the cylinders to the calipers.  In our kits, these are steel braded.  Everything above them can be considered reservoir. 

  

Remember aircraft brake systems are not like auto brake systems which is why you bleed by pumping from the “bottom” or sucking from the “top” 

  

From the top 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/VACUUMBLEED.jpg 

  

From the bottom 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/PRESS_BLEED.jpgWilliamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" Where in this system is the one way valve located(Backflow device)?In otherwards, when the pedal is pressed does the pressure only go out of the the bottom fitting in the cylinder or is the backflow valve in the base of the brake fluid reservior.John G.Do NOt Archive>From: "William Curtis" >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com>To: , >Subject: Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak?>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:28:05 -0500>>>>Guys,>>Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of the >brake system broke?  Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the >co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red fluid.  >Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough fluid >for at least one brake application from the pilot position.  The plastic >portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a >failure of the entire system.  Certainly other than plastic tube is great, >but worth the change from the stock design? Ah?>>Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious added >value.>>William>http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/>>---------------------------------------->> --> RV10-List message posted by: Rick>>Chris,>>I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you >stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3 >brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind to >me to do this upgrade.>>go to www.anplumbing.com>>type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take you >to the page for these lines. "63010112">>After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled >makes my finger tips happy!!>>Rick S.>4=====>>======    [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plastic

lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic

aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course.  Non-plastic.



Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real field

experience than trust an untrained path of technical help that they

might be okay.. but try them anyway.  Converting speed and momentum into

a motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my final

goal after a great flight.



John Cox

#40600

--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

I was trying to figure out how the brake fluid comes only in on the top 

threaded insert and does not go back out from the same insert. It must be 

that the actuation of the inside piston must allow fluid to only go out the 

bottom insert when the pedal is pushed.. Basically the plastic breaklines 

leading back to the reservoir are not under pressure, but the plastic lines 

going to the pilot's side are under pressure when the co pilot pushes the 

pedal(s). The piston in action on said cylinder no longer give access of 

fluid to the upper insert. The actuation of the pedal itself, acts as the 

gate.



Sorry, in the instructions there was so much talk about right and left 

master cylinders I had to understand it because on three of the cylinder I 

took them out of their bags and could not be sure there wasn't something 

different about each cylinder. UNderstanding the mechanism and looking at 

the flat spot on the bottom of the outside of the cylinder is enough 

information in itself. My setup is fine now that I have thoroughly confused 

you all.



JOhn G.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>, <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:40:39 -0500



  Not sure I understand your question but here is a schematic of the Matco 

brake master cylinder.   

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/MC-4A_install.jpg   This is 

roughly the RV-10 system, just with the pilot and co-pilot position 

reversed.  No check valves (anti "backflow device"). 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder20a.jpg   If 

the plastic portion was to break, as long as there was some fluid in them, 

they would effectively become mini-individual fluid reservoirs.  The 

important lines are the last lines leaving the cylinders to the calipers.  

In our kits, these are steel braded.  Everything above them can be 

considered reservoir.   Remember aircraft brake systems are not like auto 

brake systems which is why you bleed by pumping from the "bottom" or 

sucking from the "top"   From the top 

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/VACUUMBLEED.jpg   From the 

bottom http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/PRESS_BLEED.jpg



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



----------------------------------------

   



Where in this system is the one way valve located(Backflow device)?



In otherwards, when the pedal is pressed does the pressure only go out of

the the bottom fitting in the cylinder or is the backflow valve in the base

of the brake fluid reservior.



John G.



Do NOt Archive



 >From: "William Curtis"

 >Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 >To: ,

 >Subject: Re: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

 >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:28:05 -0500

 >

 >

 >

 >Guys,

 >

 >Ask yourself, what is the worst case scenario if the plastic portion of 

the

 >brake system broke?  Unless it broke at the pilot side tubes, only the

 >co-pilot will not be able to brake and you would have a mess of red 

fluid. 

 >Even if it broke at the pilot side tubes you should still have enough 

fluid

 >for at least one brake application from the pilot position.  The plastic

 >portion is relatively low pressure and a break there should not cause a

 >failure of the entire system.  Certainly other than plastic tube is 

great,

 >but worth the change from the stock design? Ah?

 >

 >Unlike our recent axle support re-design, this would be of dubious added

 >value.

 >

 >William

 >http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 >

 >----------------------------------------

 >

 > 

 >

 >Chris,

 >

 >I am in the process of replacing the plastic for the same reasons you

 >stated. I found a dealer with pretty good prices for stainless teflon -3

 >brake lines. They are sold in inch sizes and are worth the peace of mind 

to

 >me to do this upgrade.

 >

 >go to www.anplumbing.com

 >

 >type this number minus the quotes into the search window, it will take 

you

 >to the page for these lines. "63010112"

 >

 >After making up my fuel lines, buying the brake lines already assembled

 >makes my finger tips happy!!

 >

 >Rick S=================

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

John, please tell me what your quote means:



"Converting speed and momentum into

a motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my final

goal after a great flight."



I understand Shakespeare, but I don't get this? I really do want to 

understand.



Wait.... Converting the planes speed and motion into an object at rest, in 

short distance and over a small interval of time, is my ultimate goal at the 

end of a great flight.



Damm, I thought it was deeper than that.



Not trying to offend anyone!



JOhn G. Do not archive



[quote]From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:03:09 -0700






As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plastic

lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic

aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course.  Non-plastic.



Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real field

experience than trust an untrained path of technical help that they

might be okay.. but try them anyway.  Converting speed and momentum into

a motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my final

goal after a great flight.



John Cox

#40600

--

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

John, 



It might benefit you to buy the four Tony Bingelis books from EAA.  Tony Bingelis was a master aircraft builder and had a knack for explaining aircraft systems in language anyone can understand.  He built a number of aircraft in his life, including an RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6.  He wrote four books:  The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines.  All are worth reading (and are enjoyable to read).  They should be required reading for anyone building an airplane, and pretty much ARE required for anyone building a plane from scratch, rather than from a nice kit like our RV-10's.  There are a couple of chapters in one of them on aircraft brake systems, how to install them, how to bleed them and how to maintain them.



I would recommend that anyone building an airplane should own these four books, as well as a copy of AC43-13.



Jack Phillips

40610



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying RV's

are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If

there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans

with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread

as you imply.

Dan

N289DT 



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Thanks Jack,



I have the books and have read them. Only that I read them back before I 

started building. If you re- read Van'd directions on the breakline 

installation, you'll understand why I had to understand the system rather 

than simply following a receipe. I took three of the cylinders out of their 

bags and threw the bags away. There are no makings on the cylinders 

themselves, only the bottom attatchment points are different.



JOhn G.



Do nOt Archive

[quote]From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:55:00 -0400




<Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>



John,



It might benefit you to buy the four Tony Bingelis books from EAA.  Tony 

Bingelis was a master aircraft builder and had a knack for explaining 

aircraft systems in language anyone can understand.  He built a number of 

aircraft in his life, including an RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6.  He wrote four 

books:  The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction techniques, 

Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines.  All are worth reading (and 

are enjoyable to read).  They should be required reading for anyone 

building an airplane, and pretty much ARE required for anyone building a 

plane from scratch, rather than from a nice kit like our RV-10's.  There 

are a couple of chapters in one of them on aircraft brake systems, how to 

install them, how to bleed them and how to maintain them.



I would recommend that anyone building an airplane should own these four 

books, as well as a copy of AC43-13.



Jack Phillips

40610



--

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

 	  Quote: 	
		  As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plastic>lines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plastic>aircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic. 

John,Can you cite these many aircraft with problems, or specifically, a problem with the Van's design? 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real >field experience than trust an untrained path of technical help >that they might be okay.. but try them anyway. 

Seems you have confirmed why one should stick to the plans/kit configuration since Van's with 5000+ airplanes flying has "real field experience."  How many of those "plastic" airplanes are flying?>Converting speed and momentum into a motion at rest >in a short distance and interval of time >is my final goal after a great flight. 
	


Let me break out my Rosetta stone. 

Caveman:"Uhh, what!?" 

Do not archive.Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/   

--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" As a result of so many other aircraft having problems with the plasticlines provided, I am following the path to safety of the plasticaircraft builders and choosing the prudent course. Non-plastic.Is seems easier to learn from the practices of those with real fieldexperience than trust an untrained path of technical help that theymight be okay.. but try them anyway. Converting speed and momentum intoa motion at rest in a short distance and interval of time is my finalgoal after a great flight.John Cox#40600--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

Dan,



John frequents many lists, so I don't think he's referring to Van's

kits...but Lancairs.  It was a recent topic of discussion along with

some alternatives.  It did get me thinking about it and at one point

I was going to rework my lines.  I'm currently sitting on the fence

though.  Considering the lack of RV's that show problems, I think

that the issue is very grey in that:



* Not many fail

* Yes, there are better materials to use

* Yes, it is nice that you can see when the tubes are filling with air

	rather than fluid (at the end of my brake life, mine had

	some air in them at the top, so my reservoir was so small

	that it didn't handle completely the excess required fluid

	to push the calipers out WAAAY out.

* Yes, the plastic is strong enough to do the job

* Unlike some Lancair builders, we do NOT use plastic down to the

	brakes.  In fact, the plans use aluminum, but in my humble

	opinion, it is much more wise to use braided teflon from the

	fuselage to the wheel.  Then either teflon or aluminum

	in the tunnel.

* Yes, there is a high cost to some of the good alternatives

* No, nobody even mentions service life



So currently, although I would like to have a good alternative that

is easy and affordable, I'm not yet motivated enough to want to

scrap them out.  The thing is, ours are protected from UV, under

the firewall, and they're so cheap that what builders SHOULD do

(that they never seem to address) is replace them on a shorter

timeframe.  There's no reason, at the low cost of that poly, that

you shouldn't replace them every 5 years if you use them.  Why stretch

it to 10 or more just because they are still working.  They aren't

as good as day 1, so why try.  If protect them well from heat and

chafing (perhaps put some tygon over them where you use cable ties,

and other creative stuff, I'm not seeing that it's a big problem to

use the plastic.  But if you install them in a questionable way,

and then try to run them indefinitely, I think you're asking for

trouble.  And, ideally, if someone wanted to really improve things,

yes, there are alternative lines available that do make some sense.

I just don't think it's completely black and white, but more grey,

because there's such a range of quality of install, and maintainer

diligence.  With the more expensive lines, you'd still need to

do a good install if you want to expect them to be "permanent"

and give good service.



That's just my 3 cents.  As I inspect them and find anything

questionable, or I hit the 3-5 year mark, I'll either swap them

for plastic, or look for good alternatives at that time.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 So John with this comment, how many of the more than 5000 + flying RV's

 are having problems with the plastic lines as supplied in the kit? If

 there was a problem and it could be fixed so readily, I am sure Vans

 with such a critical item would have fixed it, if it is as wide spread

 as you imply.

 Dan

 N289DT

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: Do the plastic brake lines leak?

And my point still stands regardless of what list he is referring too,

there are many more RV's flying than Lancairs, and this equals tried and

true in the field testing. If this was an issue it would have been

addressed. I am not saying there is not a better, more expensive way to

do it. Heck, even I bought Kevlar break lines for my motorcycle because

they looked cool, and maybe even gave me 15-20 pounds of additional

stopping force, but that was my choice not Honda's, and I would not say

as a manufacturer they did any thing wrong in providing the type they

did. As such, I do not think there is an issue with the lines, and the

install instructions that Vans puts out, as long as they are followed. 

My discussion point was that John was making a sky is falling type

comment that if you do not upgrade your brake lines the originals will

not cut it and that is just not true, rather it is just the opposite, as

has been proven by a large fleet of airplanes. While a Lancair is a

great plane, there are not as many in their fleet so I would question

the number of issues that are in fact happening.

It is the same thing that happens here, one of us mention an issue and

several months later it is widely touted as being more widespread than

actual. So I am just trying to set the record straight that there is not

an issue with the break lines, rather you can spend money upgrading the

lines if you want to. Just like any other part of this plane, there are

plenty of people out there willing to take your money for something that

may or may not add additional benefit.

Dan

N289DT 



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