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Zenith's Annoying Documentation
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n85ae(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Hi -



I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder. 



This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 powered by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 years now.



My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which is a project in itself, and not nearly complete.



Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions. 



It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the writing quality as well is poor. In  some parts there's a photo showing a part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! Now if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However the manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? 5 minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file.



I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and the people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with the original designer.   



Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I do?



Regards,

Jeff

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

AGREED!



    N601ZV



        DO NOT ARCHIVE



---

ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I think that it is important to put into perspective what it is that we love 

to do first. I enjoy the challenge of build a plane. The manuals are not the 

best this is true. In fact if you go by Zenith's suggestion the drawings are 

the rulke not the photo manual.



I come from an engineering background and I can tell you one thing for sure, 

ENGINEERS WRITE BAD MANUALS. There is a reason for this, they are to close 

to the project and they know to much. The result is that they think the user 

of the manual knows as much as they do. Manual writting is a science and art 

to itself. I had a writter thsat worked for me that as much as the engineers 

did and the result was a first class manual that worked for the person who 

knew nothing.



As a test of a manual for an new product release we always gave the product 

and draft manual to one of the plant works to install and operate the 

machine. While we expected some problems from someone who was not fimilar 

with the use of the product we were confident that it was pretty complete.



Let's not slam Zenith for doing what engineers do. We can always call them 

with questions and they will always, my experience, guide us down the right 

path.



Chuck Wacker

N601CW, Quick Build



PS I'm and engineer and cannot spell.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Hays Jeff <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT)






Hi -



I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder.



This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 powered 

by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 years now.



My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which 

is a project in itself, and not nearly complete.



Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the 

quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to 

Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 

there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some 

degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions.



It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come 

out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The 

procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the 

writing quality as well is poor. In  some parts there's a photo showing a 

part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in 

completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! Now 

if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However the 

manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? 5 

minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file.



I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the 

planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the 

Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and the 

people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with the 

original designer.



Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I do?



Regards,

Jeff




	


_________________________________________________________________

Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. 

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pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Jeff,



I couldn't agree more. I would hate to be a first time builder on the Zenith 

products. I know alot of people are, itmust be even more difficult without 

any knowledge of aircraft construction. It's not really a fair comparison, 

but I have built on Van's airplanes and their kits and plans are excellent. 

I try not to compare them but it's hard not to. If someone that can write 

good technical manuals would go through the build process and organize it as 

it should be it would be much better. Trouble is it all costs money and it's 

easier said than done. So, speaking for myself ( one of the other 801 

builders ), I will continue on and hope I don't have to buy to many 

replacement parts.



Dave in Salem



do not archive.

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I'm a first time builder and have done my share of bitching about the manuals. One thing that helped was when I stopped using the manual that they sent me and started downloading and printing a section at a time.



I don't know about the 801 manual but the 601 manual is much better now than it was when I bought my first kit section in 2002.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dj45

Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Jackson MI

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Hi All,

I am a first time builder. Built a lot of RC planes but didn't know jack about real aircraft. Chose the Zenith 801 because I am a retired sheetmetal worker and it just seemed like the way to go.



Yes, sometimes the manuel didn't explane things very well and I had to do a little thinking on my own, I can do that.



Called Zenith one time because a part was made wrong and I couldn't come up with a way to correct it, they sent out the right one the next day.



No one should not buy one just because it didn't come with an Easy Button. After awhile you can get your own. My sister/pilot/co-owner got one for us.

 

It is an aircraft we are building, they are complicated machines and do need some thought on the part of the builder to make them as safe as we can. Every detail isn't covered in the manuel but I think after the basic instruction, we should be abel to work our way thru it.



After all, getting there is half the fun.

_________________
Do not archive

Dan Stanton
N801S CH 801
N226BS CH701
N24DS CH750

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals

as-is for a hobby we love.



So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? At least with regards to the CH801 kit.



I can't accept that. This is the only area of aviation which allows for such poor quality. The manuals are substandard quality, even for a high school writing class.



How many drawing for the 801 Kit, include dimensions? Virtually none,

merely a set of undimensioned drawings. Actually I would almost prefer an

accurately dimensioned set of drawings, and no builder's mahual to be honest. Rather than a poor builders manual.



Basically, I'm ok with being given a good map, and being told to find my own way. But I get really aggravated by a set of directions, that lead 

me some place I don't want to be.



If you have access to the builder docs online, take a look at:



Go to page 12, photo FR2-17 and note the orientation of the bracket to the

rib. Look at the subsequent series of photo's. It appears clear how you

would assemble the flaperons to each other.

 

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/flaperon2of3.pdf



That bracket is oriented in the wrong direction. If you follow that 

step and all the following steps, you will discover that not only is the bracket upside down. But that anybody who builds per this photo

sequence will have to rework their flaperons.



That document is dated 5/99 ... I could fix that error in 5 minutes with

Adobe Acrobat, AND repost the pdf file. If the error was there for a few

months, or a year even, well ok. But it is in an unrevised 8 year old doc.



This is NOT the only case like this, there are many others. Since this is

clearly Zenith's error, should the rework cost me, or should it cost them?

Well obviously they aren't going to call and reimburse me for my time. 



That does not mean you cannot build a plane from the kit, with the manuals that are provided. However it does mean that you better be accepting of the fact that your build time is going to be increased by 15-20% due to rework, and trying to clarify things.

 

I don't even have animosity towards Zenith for making mistakes, everybody does. BUT not correcting them, and leaving stuff with known errors out here for years?

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Good post Dan!



Having said that, I have a couple of thoughts of my own.



SkyHawg is my fourth/three.5 aircraft to build.  Zenith by far had the best 

instruction set of them all.  If one wanted a challenge he/she should try to 

build a set of wings from the then PegaStol kit producer using their 

instructions translated from French to broken English.  That was fun.  The 

new owner is rewriting the manual.  The other two were RAF-2000s.  Here 

again we had a translation problem, from Canadian to American.  There are 

differences that slow you down, like on wiring diagrams they had an "E" for 

the ground connections, which meant Earth.  Their were lots more, but it's 

been too long to remember.  And, RAFs were my very first shot at building 

aircraft, I knew absolutely nothing about aircraft.  Just got tired of 

building cars, thought I would try something different, and it was.



For you new builders using Zenith instructions/plans I offer this 

suggestion.  Use the plans as your main reference and the book as a guide. 

I found the plans to be as correct as could be, but the book can be 

confusing or even misleading.  Learn to read the plans.  If you don't know 

how to read autocad type plans, get some help.  Life will be a whole lot 

easier when you master plan reading.



Another of my 2 cents worth.



Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com





---

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

First, I agree the company's response to questions is very good. Second, 

yes, you have to be able to think on your own to build an aircraft. That 

said, there is no excuse for incorrect prints, we design and manufacture 

precision components, I assure you our customers would not accept it. I have 

found several mistakes on their prints, one as recent as a couple of months 

ago. The position dimension for a bracket was off by 6mm and it was not 

possible to put it were it was specified. I called the plant and had them 

review the dimensions with me, they agreed the print was wrong and suggested 

what adjustments to make. If this was the first time out with the design, 

anyone could accept errors but would expect the prints to be revised. I 

bought the latest prints for updates and that was the set I was using when I 

found the latest error.



Clyde

601 XL



Do Not Archive

---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Looks to me like this is the left hand wing flaperon and is layng on the  top side for ease of construction. What am I missing?

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

  

 In a message dated 3/15/2007 9:58:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  n85ae(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Go    to page 12, photo FR2-17 and note the orientation of the bracket to    the

rib. Look at the subsequent series of photo's. It appears clear how    you

would assemble the flaperons to each    other.



http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/flaperon2of3.pdf



That    bracket is oriented in the wrong direction. If you follow that 

step and    all the following steps, you will discover that not only is the bracket upside    down. But that anybody who builds per this photo

sequence will have to    rework their flaperons.



	


 

  



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Larry,

  

 The GroundHawg looks terrific. By any chance have you  tried it on the road yet? How about the SkyHawg?

  

 I have a 40 foot MCI-9 bus here that I am converting to  a RV for a Missionary family from Ghana. After that I will be starting a Glastar  that I just picked up from Michigan. I will probably put my 701 up for sale at  the end of the summer.

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

 In a message dated 3/15/2007 10:09:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lrm(at)skyhawg.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Their    were lots more, but it's 

been too long to remember.  And, RAFs were    my very first shot at building 

aircraft, I knew absolutely nothing about    aircraft.  Just got tired of    

building cars, thought I would try something different, and it    was.



Another of my 2 cents worth.



Larry, N1345L,    www.skyhawg.com

	


 

  



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Sorry List, That was supposed to go to Larry directly

  

 do not archive



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

What you are missing, is that the bracket is supposed to point down, not up. The next pictures show setting the 20mm offset between the

flaperons. If you follow the photo sequence, and don't realize that the 

first picture is upside down, you will then set the 20mm shim under the 

wrong half of the flaperon. In effect reversing the offset from what it is

supposed to be.



Interestingly the diagram on Zenith's website was changed this morning.

It now has a clear picture of the splice plates. Yesterday's file does not

have this (I have a printout here on my desk so I'm certain it changed):



http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/8xa-1.pdf



Somebody must be reading this thread. 



Jeff.

NamesChangedTo...

Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I'm hearing a lot more of cursing the darkness than lighting of candles.



If you don't like the documentation, do something about it.  Since you know what documentation should be, contact Zenith and offer to rewrite their manuals.  If you agree to take payment in Zenith parts, you could even profit from it.



I'm sorry if this offends, but complaning to people who can't fix your problem is a waste of everyones time.



Spit or get off the spitoon,

NamesChangedToProtectTheInnocent

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I have done lots of technical writing, if you represent Zenith send me an

offline email, and I am sure we can negotiate a reasonable rate for

rewriting the complete CH801 documentation.

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Sorry, I don't mean to argue with you but it still appears to be correct.  If this is the left wing flaperon and you are looking at it upside down the  inboard portion will be 20 mm lower than the outboard portion.

  

  

  

 



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rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

[quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals

as-is for a hobby we love.



So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? 

[end quote]

If by "mediocre" you mean average or moderate, then Yes, I'd say it is OK.

I built an Avid Flyer several years ago, the documentation and drawings had FAR less information than the ZAC drawings that I used when I scratch build a 601HD. Every bit of data that I needed was on the blueprints. You might have to extrapolate some of the numbers from other references, but that's part of the challenge of building your own airplane.

Always go by the blueprint. The photos and builder's manuals should be considered to be a guide to help explain (or confuse) the process.



Just my $0.02 

Rick Pitcher

airplane builder

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Well I've built two now, and I don't think it's ok to accept mediocrity

for $20K.   Here's why:



I see two situations, and I think people support Kit companies because

of the first (1), and they make the mistake of not realizing that case (2).

is really the situation they are in. If that makes sense.



1). If I called my friend Chris, and said say can you send me enough

parts to build the plane with, some instructions how to build it. Then as

I progressed I'd go back and forth with him asking question about  the

build process. Likely he'd say, oops I forgot to mention I made a mistake,

here, or there, etc. This is ok. We're airplane enthusiast working on a

common fun thing. I can forgive that he made the mistakes, our

relationship is not a professional one. 



2). If I bought a Kit from a Corporation, which is a legal entity, doing

business selling Chris's design for profit to customers. Then down the

road I found an error. I could reasonably expect them to remedy the mistake AND correct the documentation. I would also have a reasonable

expectation of a certain degree of quality. 



So for instance you buy a telephone from the phone company, and the

1 button hangs up the call, and the # button dials 1. But the manual says 

otherwise, should you just say - Gee, well that's ok, guess they made a

mistake. I bet 99% of the people on this list would not do that for their

telephone. So why would you do that for a Kit company?



Regards,

Jeff

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

There will be speedbumps during the building process. Every time I can across a hiccup in the manual I called Zenith. Nick or Roger was quick to straighten out any and all issues to my satifaction. In my whole plane I only killed one part, thats the heavy walled U channel thats at the rear of the cabin door opening. I trimmed the angles backwards, boy did I feel stupid. !!! I called the following Monday and Shirley sold me a new one. They shipped it out that same day and it was here in Wyoming on Weds. In all my life Zenith Aircraft has been the "BEST" company I have ever done business with.  YMMV. 

I LOVE my 801. !!!!!!!!!!!! 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "rickpitcher" <zodie(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "rickpitcher" <zodie(at)adelphia.net>



[quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals

as-is for a hobby we love.



So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? 

[end quote]   [quote][b]

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Well I've built two now, and I don't think it's ok to accept mediocrity

for $20K.   

	




Hehe... OK Jeff mediocrity IS a bad choice of words.  Adequate might be better.

BUT... to put things into perspective: we're talking about a 4-place kit plane for ~$20K. I've heard that Van's provides a lot more documentation for their 4-place kit plane, but it costs closer to $40K. I'd rather pay $20K for a superior design with adequate documentation than $40K for a superior design with superior documentation... but that's just MY preference. Spend your money as you see fit of course.



BTW, I noticed that NYTerminate has posted the same picture saying that the guide IS correct, maybe you misread it. ??

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