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Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

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owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got very large and I was  thinking that we could put another group buy at a later date.  These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up working on this part earlier than I had anticipated.  Being a bit early for another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.

  

 I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4 inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt.    I have attached a few pictures for those interested in trying the same modification.  

  

 I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.

  

 Niko

 40188

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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Tim will tell you, I'll bet that even the AN6 bolt will shear.



The vibration and the fulcrum point of the edge of the hex extension on the 

vertical face of the axle mount, cycled thousands and thousands of time will 

snap that bolt.



I like to think of this design as the way early dental implants were 

designed. The screws used to snap of inside the implant or bend before 

snapping.



This is why I love to understand the physics in everything including 

dentistry.



John G



Do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: Matronics <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (PDT)



When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got 

very large and I was  thinking that we could put another group buy at a 

later date.  These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up 

working on this part earlier than I had anticipated.  Being a bit early for 

another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.



I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4 

inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt.    I have attached a few pictures 

for those interested in trying the same modification.



I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.



Niko

40188


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  << AxleExtensionSml1.jpg >>


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  << AxleExtensionSml2.jpg >>


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  << AxleExtension3Sml.jpg >>

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Looks like a good option also.  Thanks for the pics.  

     

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niko

 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:36 AM

 To: Matronics

 Subject: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method  

  

       

     

       

When we had the axle extension group buy I had opted out as the group got very large and I was  thinking that we could put another group buy at a later date.  These things have a way of sneaking up on you and I ended up working on this part earlier than I had anticipated.  Being a bit early for another group buy I brute forced it and got another solution.  

    

   

    

I replaced the original 1/2 inch diameter extension and AN4 bolt with a 3/4 inch diameter hex extension and AN6 bolt.    I have attached a few pictures for those interested in trying the same modification.    

    

   

    

I found the 3/4 inch hex extension at McMasterCarr in 12 inch lengths.  

    

   

    

Niko  

    

40188  

  

  

  

   

  

  

       [quote][b]

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

I am not sure why you are saying this John.  An AN6 bolt, has a tensile strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 4000lb.  Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the bolt.  I haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't tell you for sure if the original design was grossly undersized, however,  being that not everyone is having problems I would think that Vans design is not that far off.  And this design would have less than a third of the stress in the bolt that Vans design has.  I guess time will tell.

  

  One item that might be coming into play is the torque values.  If one under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically.  Thats because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as the rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint.  If the applied load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will open up and drastically reduce the life of the bolt.  Yes,  this does mean the higher the torque the better up to the point where significant deformation of the threads occurs.  Although this is just a guess it could very well be that the people having problems with Vans design at this location have not applied enough torque.  I do realize that the bolt is being threaded into aluminum and one has to be more carefull

  

  Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem.  In fact even aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the peak stress below 10 ksi.   

  

  

 Niko

 40188

 ---

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

First let me state I am not trying to be a know it all or a smart ass. Nor 

am I clairvoyant.



Think about how those rocks were moved to build the pyramids. Think about 

how after a tornado or hurricane they find a plastic straw embedded in a 

telephone pole. How about how a 110 pound Japanese Aikido practitioner can 

bring down a 350 pound muscle man with the greatest of ease.



What the hell am I talking about?



Brute force, or as you state, the thickest of metal, not designed well, will 

shatter. The problem is that you need to think of the hex extension as a 

lever. The fulcrum point is the edge of the hex where it touches the flat 

face of the axle adapter. The other lever arm is the distance between the 

bolt and the outside edge of the hex extension(in other wards, the distance 

between the fulcrum point back to the bolt.) Think of this also in 360 

degrees(this is realy bad)



Now you will true your fairing as best you can so it flies cleanly through 

the air, but these reciprocating engines, even the Eggenfellner, will cause 

a vibration. Translate that vibration on to the wheel fairing and you will 

get a harmonic cycle acting on that long lever arm(The hex extension). The 

longer the hex extension the worse the problem. The more mass at the end of 

that extension, the worse the problem. The more vibration, worse yet. 

Millions of cycles possibly over a single flight. In my opinion, that bolt 

doesn't stand a chance. No matter how you torque it.



Here is a little better way. Tim's design for one. After that, where the hex 

extension meets the axle adapter, you need a female receptor lathed into the 

axle adapter. It needs to have a Morse Taper. The Hex extension needs to 

have a corresponding Male, Morse taper. The bolt, properly torqued will 

transfer the load to the two tapers and relieve the lateral forces which the 

bolt's shaft is subjected to. The bolt will now only serve to hold the two 

pieces together.  The machining needs to be really clean with no internal 

blips or hangups, otherwise these will act as fulcrum points.



Damm, you all better hope that my schedule starts getting busy again, 

otherwise I'll drive you crazy.



John G. #409



Do archive this.  I think this is an appropriate time for a Yoda qoute. 

Suggestions?



Wagers anyone????



[quote]From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT)



I am not sure why you are saying this John.  An AN6 bolt, has a tensile 

strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 4000lb.  

Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the bolt.  I 

haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't tell you for 

sure if the original design was grossly undersized, however,  being that 

not everyone is having problems I would think that Vans design is not that 

far off.  And this design would have less than a third of the stress in the 

bolt that Vans design has.  I guess time will tell.



  One item that might be coming into play is the torque values.  If one 

under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically.  Thats 

because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as the 

rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint.  If the applied 

load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will open up and 

drastically reduce the life of the bolt.  Yes,  this does mean the higher 

the torque the better up to the point where significant deformation of the 

threads occurs.  Although this is just a guess it could very well be that 

the people having problems with Vans design at this location have not 

applied enough torque.  I do realize that the bolt is being threaded into 

aluminum and one has to be more carefull



  Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem.  In fact even 

aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the peak 

stress below 10 ksi.

Niko

40188

---

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

In the time it took to type that response you could have mounted the delron blocks into the door pockets.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

John Gonzalez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Do archive this.  I think this is an appropriate time for a Yoda

 qoute. Suggestions?




	


    "This is not the axle extension you are looking for..."







-Dj

do not archive

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Personally, I think that what Niko did is going to work great.  The

old one had it's weaknesses, and any enlargement or improvement

will help a great deal and likely make it a non-issue.  He's going

with a huge bolt, but not quite as much base on the stem, but

relative to what was kit-supplied, he's quite a bit better.  The

hex bar may make it easier to rock in one specific direction,

whereas a rounded piece would be like having that width

throughout an infinite number of corners like on the hex. (hard

to explain that one...but I'm basically saying that he's only got

that huge OD on the corners, and it's lesser on the flats)

So, in the end, I don't see that it'll be a big problem if the

originals worked OK for some people for a while.  It may

not be quite as strong, or maybe with the larger bolt he may

be as strong.  Either way, he's well over what it originally

was so I sure wouldn't lose any sleep over it at this point.

I do agree with you though John, that the fulcrum point is not only

closer to the bolt, but with the flats it can be even more

close than at the hex corners.  Is it a big deal? as long a

the piece has some huge-ness, it will help.  On those that we

had made, I just went for the widest base, with a thin enough tip

so that it would easily retrofit and work for anyone....and taper

to save weight.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Niko wrote:

[quote] I am not sure why you are saying this John.  An AN6 bolt, has a tensile 

 strength of 10100lb where as an AN4 bolt has a tensile strength of 

 4000lb.  Additionally the larger hex extension reduces the load on the 

 bolt.  I haven't done any analysis on this particular design so I can't 

 tell you for sure if the original design was grossly undersized, 

 however,  being that not everyone is having problems I would think that 

 Vans design is not that far off.  And this design would have less than a 

 third of the stress in the bolt that Vans design has.  I guess time will 

 tell.

  

  One item that might be coming into play is the torque values.  If one 

 under torques a bolt its fatigue life may be reduced drastically.  Thats 

 because the bolt typically sees only a fraction of the applied load as 

 the rest is going to relieve some of the preload in the joint.  If the 

 applied load is higher than the preload due to torque the joint will 

 open up and drastically reduce the life of the bolt.  Yes,  this does 

 mean the higher the torque the better up to the point where significant 

 deformation of the threads occurs.  Although this is just a guess it 

 could very well be that the people having problems with Vans design at 

 this location have not applied enough torque.  I do realize that the 

 bolt is being threaded into aluminum and one has to be more carefull

  

  Thousands of cycles by themselves are not a problem.  In fact even 

 aluminum (2024) can take more than 100 million cycles if you keep the 

 peak stress below 10 ksi.   

  

  

 Niko

 40188

 

 ---

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Unfortunately I work far away from my plane and when I am not working with 

my hands in my job, I often waist time.



Hoping you all don't all feel it was a waist of my time writing it or yours 

reading it.



I still counter, hugeness only goes so far. I will hope it lasts until the 

time Tim offers another order.



Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time.



Send patients so I shut up.



John G. Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:27:13 -0400 (EDT)






In the time it took to type that response you could have mounted the delron 

blocks into the door pockets.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

John,



Keep them posts coming!!! 



I went to the GE site.....I thought it sucked wind!!  



Now for a good olympic event we could have a mass parachute drop into that area and see who makes the best spot landings... 



Sorry CJ!!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

"I still counter, hugeness only goes so far." 



So are you saying that size matters or doesn't matter? Or maybe big is good but ya gotta kiss her too?



"Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time".



I agree...not taking advantage of free air is a big "WAIST" which goes back to that hugeness you keep referring too!!



 Quitting time for me must be getting punchy...time to go sand, again, and again.



All in fun Doc!!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Okay Rick,



Well, without tools I can't lift a really fat guy off the ground. Big guys 

are better on the front line for blocking and filling in open spaces. In 

these cases, hugeness matters, but here is one for you...



"Size matters not, look at me. judge me by size, do you"

As Yoda lifts the RV10(X wing fighter) out of the swamp, Luke says,"I can't 

believe it."



Yoda:"That is why you fail"



Basically, don't under estimate the laws of physics or the 'Force'



Remember, shear is different from tensil and compression. I think in this 

case, you have all three working on that bolt.



I am leaving work and going for a run. Have fun guys, gals



Dr. G



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Rick <ricksked(at)earthlink.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:59:03 -0400 (EDT)






"I still counter, hugeness only goes so far."



So are you saying that size matters or doesn't matter? Or maybe big is good 

but ya gotta kiss her too?



"Did anyone visit the GE 1.5MW fan site? Please don't say a waist of time".



I agree...not taking advantage of free air is a big "WAIST" which goes back 

to that hugeness you keep referring too!!



 Quitting time for me must be getting punchy...time to go sand, again, 

and again.



All in fun Doc!!



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Well John,  I don't think you are being a smart ass and you have not offended me in any way.  I am just writing this for an informational point of view as I have gotten a lot of usefull information from this group and I am trying to give back a little.

  

 There is a big difference between a "poor" design and margin of safety.  A poor structural design simply means its inefficient in carrying loads it does not mean that it will fail.  The RV10s,  small Cessnas, and small Pipers are filled with design details which are considered "poor" because they are structurally inefficient but they have adequate margins of safety and they work.  They are just heavy but they are simple cheap methods of doing a task and frankly I believe in most cases appropriate for the aircraft they are being used in.

  

  

 The current axle extension design that Van's has is not a bad design its simply a bit undersized.  It works in heel-toe action what you are calling a fulcrum.  This is not a mystical design.  The load on the bolt for a given configuration can be easily calculated and sized appropriately.  By the way this same concept is being used to carry the horizontal stabilizer vertical load at the  front spar location in the RV10.  If you look at the joint closely you will notice that the two angle fittings will have heel toe action at the base.  This by the way identical to design Piper uses on some of its aircraft and it works.  I can only surmise that its one of the many details Vans has copied from someone else.  Its not the lightest or most elegant solution but it gets the job done, its simple and its cheap.  Another example is the use of 6061 aluminum  which is considered very weak not typically not used in more advanced aircraft.  the AN3 bolts we use are also not used in more advanced designs as they are at the low end of steels capability and there are much stronger bolts for the same weight.

  

 In the design change I made I increased the diameter of the hex extension by 50% which inturn lowered the heel toe load by the same amount as the moment arm has increased.  This results in about a 30% decrease in stress in the bolt.  Increasing the diameter of the bolt increased the bolt area by 2.25 times and resulted in a corresponding decrease in the bolt stress.  If you take these two changes together the operating stress in the new bolt is about 30% of Van's design (70% reduction in stress.)  This is not a guess or heresay, this is the rough number using a simplistic analysis method.  Since in general a 10% decrease in stess will double the fatigue life this should result in approximately 2000 fold increase in fatigue life.  You can see this from a typical steel fatigue curve.  See attached figure for 4130 steel which indicates much more than  3 orders of magnitude improvement in life for a 70% reduction in stress (red vs blue line.)  In fact it appears that for 4130 we would be operating below its endurance limit so we would be approaching infinite life.  What I haven't considered here is the preload in the bolt which also tilts the scale on the side of the larger bolt.

  

 Lets conservatively say that these bolts fail in 50 hrs of flying, then a 2000 fold increase will give me a life of 100,000hrs using a scatter factor of 3 which is typicall for aircraft I would expect at least a 33000hr life which I believe is adequate.  And there are aircraft flying with the original design with hundereds of hours with no failures.  Truth of the matter is that this design is probably adequate with a 3/4" hex extension and only an AN5 bolt.

  

 My conclusion is that the revised design is adequate.  If someone doesn't think so that's okay too.

  

 Niko

 40188

  

  

  

  

  

 



 

 ---

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Excellent and well thought out response. I agree with you on all the 

mathmatical analysis, not that I did it or checked it. I still think it is 

not a good design, regardless of how much beef you put into it.



I do not agree however that the fastening of the HS is the same meathod. The 

design for the wheel faring is a single axis, like a flag pole.



The HS angle brackets, two total, each has two bolts for a total of four. In 

addition, the forks that anchor the rear spar, if I recal correctly, has 

another two bolts per fork for a total of four. So all said, there are eight 

bolts, four working in both shear and tension on the main spar and four 

working more in shear on the rear spar.  I like to think of it like a four 

legged stool with all the legs anchored to the ground. It is very stable 

with little change that lateral loads will be able to impart any damage to 

anyone of the eight bolts.



The wheel faring, I see it as a one legged stool anchored into the ground. 

In this case, Rick, size matters, because that guy that kept agreeing to 

Supersized orders at MCDonalds(Drives a Hummer and leaves his light on all 

day long when no one is home) is gonna find himself on that ground with no 

one to help him get up. Like a rollie polli bug that's stuck on its back.



If the faring attachment mechanis breaks and if the faring only drags on the 

ground, no problem.

But is it tears off, gets sucked up under the tire and then thrown, damaging 

the bottom of the plane, wing or break line than it is a problem. We worked 

way too hard to make these planes look great and function well to suffer 

that fate.



Get the name of Tim's contact and run another order. I would make you one if 

I had the lathe.



Thanks for listening.



Rick, little green men were chaising me, thats why I was running. They were 

LITTLE, and when I turned around and chaised them, they led me to their pot 

of GOLD. Still can't afford that glass panel.



No dentistry today, only kindergarden teaching and then plane building. No 

more posts.



JOhn G #409

[quote]From: Niko <owl40188(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT)



Well John,  I don't think you are being a smart ass and you have not 

offended me in any way.  I am just writing this for an informational point 

of view as I have gotten a lot of usefull information from this group and I 

am trying to give back a little.



There is a big difference between a "poor" design and margin of safety.  A 

poor structural design simply means its inefficient in carrying loads it 

does not mean that it will fail.  The RV10s,  small Cessnas, and small 

Pipers are filled with design details which are considered "poor" because 

they are structurally inefficient but they have adequate margins of safety 

and they work.  They are just heavy but they are simple cheap methods of 

doing a task and frankly I believe in most cases appropriate for the 

aircraft they are being used in.

The current axle extension design that Van's has is not a bad design its 

simply a bit undersized.  It works in heel-toe action what you are calling 

a fulcrum.  This is not a mystical design.  The load on the bolt for a 

given configuration can be easily calculated and sized appropriately.  By 

the way this same concept is being used to carry the horizontal stabilizer 

vertical load at the  front spar location in the RV10.  If you look at the 

joint closely you will notice that the two angle fittings will have heel 

toe action at the base.  This by the way identical to design Piper uses on 

some of its aircraft and it works.  I can only surmise that its one of the 

many details Vans has copied from someone else.  Its not the lightest or 

most elegant solution but it gets the job done, its simple and its cheap.  

Another example is the use of 6061 aluminum which is considered very weak 

not typically not used in more advanced aircraft.  the AN3 bolts we use are 

also not used in more

  advanced designs as they are at the low end of steels capability and 

there are much stronger bolts for the same weight.



In the design change I made I increased the diameter of the hex extension 

by 50% which inturn lowered the heel toe load by the same amount as the 

moment arm has increased.  This results in about a 30% decrease in stress 

in the bolt.  Increasing the diameter of the bolt increased the bolt area 

by 2.25 times and resulted in a corresponding decrease in the bolt stress.  

If you take these two changes together the operating stress in the new bolt 

is about 30% of Van's design (70% reduction in stress.)  This is not a 

guess or heresay, this is the rough number using a simplistic analysis 

method.  Since in general a 10% decrease in stess will double the fatigue 

life this should result in approximately 2000 fold increase in fatigue 

life.  You can see this from a typical steel fatigue curve.  See attached 

figure for 4130 steel which indicates much more than 3 orders of magnitude 

improvement in life for a 70% reduction in stress (red vs blue line.)  In 

fact it appears that for 4130 we

  would be operating below its endurance limit so we would be approaching 

infinite life.  What I haven't considered here is the preload in the bolt 

which also tilts the scale on the side of the larger bolt.



Lets conservatively say that these bolts fail in 50 hrs of flying, then a 

2000 fold increase will give me a life of 100,000hrs using a scatter factor 

of 3 which is typicall for aircraft I would expect at least a 33000hr life 

which I believe is adequate.  And there are aircraft flying with the 

original design with hundereds of hours with no failures.  Truth of the 

matter is that this design is probably adequate with a 3/4" hex extension 

and only an AN5 bolt.



My conclusion is that the revised design is adequate.  If someone doesn't 

think so that's okay too.



Niko

40188

---

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Axle Extension - Brute Force Method

I also like the design Tim came up particularly the reduced section on the outboard side to save weight thats why I initially got into the group buy.  The basic concept though that both Tim and I used is no different than Van's.  Its the same design concept just a bit beefier.  Its single bolt though the axle nut and still has plenty of heel toe action just different amounts of heel toe and different strength bolts.

  

 Since you told me to "Get the name of Tim's contact and run another order" I would say maybe you need to stop shooting from the hip and show some data if you are claiming something will fail or is undersized .    I do appreciate the thought of you making one for me though.  If you ever do get a lathe I would like the 3/4 inch hex bar rounded at the outboard end and the diameter reduced to 1/2 inch on the outboard end.  You can keep the inboard edge just the way it is.  This will save a bit of weight which also reduces the load on the bolt.  If  you can anodize it also that will make it look really nice. 

  

 As far as the horizontal stabilizer, the heel toe action is definitely there.  If I get some time this weekend I might draw some figures and elaborate, or maybe people are getting tired of this subject and its best to let it go and get back to priming discussions.

  

 Either way best wishes in your building and do what you feel comfortable with as long as you don't reduce sizes from Van's design.

  

 By the way for anyone wanting to do something similar, this is just my opinion as to what is adequate and I might be wrong and have been wrong before.

  

 Is everyone priming their parts?  I hope you realize your airplane might come apart in flight if you don't.

  

 Do not archive.

  

  

 Niko

 40188

  

  

  

 

 

 ---

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