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XL Max Wind Landings

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JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Dear Thread Friends, I flew this morning. Had my bi-annual check ride. Probably could have picked a better day. Bone jarring bumps up to 4000 feet and a painful cross wind for landing. When we took off it was 14 gusting to 20 kts. It was obviously much worse an hour later upon return for landing. No flaps of course, and a bit fast for rudder control, just as I flared the x-wind gust tried real hard to flip the plane over. I had the wing way down, but nature took over and forced it up. Max aileron would not even level her and I was bending the stick and stretching cables. A burst of power and I got her up and going again, level then finally got the wing down into the wind just a little for touch down, still with max aileron, but landed on both mains. Not one and then the other as I was trying to do for the extreme winds. When the ZAC folks say 20 kt max cross wind, believe me that's real !  A tad more and I would have ended up in the pond. Happy flying and best regards, Bill of Georgia

**************************************

 AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

So, what was the verdict from your passenger/BFI  person.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Bill,

 Glad you were able to make a great landing  (airplane still flyable).  Max X-wind I have experienced to date has  been about 12 kts and no problem.  One of  the things I like about the Jab is it can pull you out of trouble easily  .

 Curious as to where you got the info about 20  kts being the max X-wind for the XL.  I've been wondering about  what it is.

 Take care,

 Tony Graziano

 601XL; N493TG; 218hrs

   [quote][b]

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Bill- Sounds like a d...fine pilot made a d... fine  choice and saved two d... fine people from a d... mess.  Congrats to  you-

 Do Not Archive

  

 Al Young

 N-601AY 

 [quote]   ---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: Re: XL Max Wind Landings

A predictable thing happens about 3:00PM every summer day in the Midwest ... rapid thunderstorm buildup caused from adiabatic heating. You'll get a lot of bumps and gusts, especially as you get closer to the ground on approach. 



I flew coast to coast and back in my XL last August, New Jersey to Oregon and back. That was about 35 hours of flying spread out over two weeks. Going east to west, I crossed the Rockies near Great Falls, and again on the way back just north of Idaho Springs. Needless to say, I gained some experience flying the XL in rough weather and gusts.



Prior to the long trip, I was a little hesitant to fly the XL in anything but calm weather because it's a very light craft and has less than stellar roll command. The adrenalin flowed more than a few times in gusty situations. However, the long trip taught me some basics about stick and rudder that all pilots should learn. I no longer have issues flying the XL in rough or gusty situations.  Nevertheless, I do stay within the design limits.



I'm not an instructor, but I do have about 200 hours experience with the XL. Here is my advice, for what it's worth.



First, to help prevent a low altitude stall after a gust, keep your airspeed 5 to 10 knots faster than on a normally approach. 



Next, get in the habit of using the rudder in conjunction with ailerons. The XL has strong, responsive yaw command (rudder). The fastest, safest way to right yourself is to "step on the high wing" ... or in other words, if the right wing is higher than the left due to a sudden gust, using right stick and stepping on the right rudder at the same time with will level the ship very quickly. 



Although, being rolled in the air by a strong gust can scare the crap out of you, stay calm amd don't over-react . You just need to practice using rudder in conjunction with ailerons and it will all become automatic after a while. 



Adding a little power in a gust will help maintain airspeed, but I emphasize "a little power". Depending on which way the wind rolled you, the left turning tendency of the engine at full power may actually make things worse.



Lastly, a successful landing in windy conditions is not the end of things. Remember to keep ailerons and elevator in the proper positions to avoid being flipped over on the ground. Most important is to point the stick full forward when you taxi with a tail wind. The long tail on the XL provides excellent pitch command, but can also make an excellent lever for the wind to flip your plane on the ground.



My two cents.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Hi Tony,



 I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but rule-of-thumb for any airplane is 1/3 VSo.  That would mean 20 Kts is a little high for the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . . 



 One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway airport.  I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by adding some power to get the prop wash over the rudder.  It worked really well, so I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the plane.  I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that.



 

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 

 At 09:15 AM 3/18/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bill,

 Glad you were able to make a great landing (airplane still flyable).  Max X-wind I have experienced to date has been about 12 kts and no problem.  One of the things I like about the Jab is it can pull you out of trouble easily .

 Curious as to where you got the info about 20 kts being the max X-wind for the XL.  I've been wondering about what it is.

 Take care,

 Tony Graziano

 601XL; N493TG; 218hrs

 	
 

 ---------------------------------------------

 Paul Mulwitz

 32013 NE Dial Road

 Camas, WA 98607

 ---------------------------------------------

     [quote][b]

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Holy CRAP!

  

 8-0

  

 do not archive



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul  Mulwitz

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 4:06 PM

To:  zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RE: XL Max Wind  Landings

 

Hi Tony,



I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but  rule-of-thumb for any airplane is 1/3 VSo.  That would mean 20 Kts is a  little high for the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . .  



One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that  exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway  airport.  I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by adding  some power to get the prop wash over the rudder.  It worked really well, so  I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the plane.  I got scared so  badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after  that.

Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

[quote] [b]

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Getting scared while flying Re: XL Max Wind Landings

Paul, I'm quoting you but this is really aimed at the low time pilots.



If something happens when you are flying that scares you to the point that you don't want to fly for a while the best bet is get with an instructor and fly ASAP.



It hasn't happened to me but I've seen it happen to others. This is especially true during the post-solo period of training.



Get back on the horse.



 	  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: 	
		  

 I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that.



 

 Paul

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: XL Max Wind Landings

One thing I've noticed on low wing airplanes over the years (like Cherokee 140's) is that some will have scratches on the underside of the wingtip from being dragged on the ground in extreme crosswinds.  For that reason (among others) I prefer not to use the classic wing low approach taught by so many instuctors.



I prefer to use a crab & kick method, rather than fly a long, wing low approach.  It is common for things to change in the last 20 feet above the runway so you might as well deal with it from a normal attitude.  What I do is when I'm at flare altitude and ready to touch down I straighten the aircraft out with the rudder and lower the upwind wing enough to stop the drift until the wheels are planted. Sometimes a shot of power is a big help at this point.  After touchdown, full aileron into the wing and enough forward pressure to keep the nose down.....raise flaps when you're able.



I have used this method with high and low wing, tri-gear and taildraggers...all with great success.   I always made a point of teaching both methods to my students and letting them choose what felt best for them.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Hi Gig,

Thanks for the great advice.

The incident I related happened when I was training for a commercial 

license.  I was flying out of a little airport with, at best, 

questionable instructors.  There was nobody there I had a trusting 

relationship with.  The main attraction of the place was it was ten 

miles from my workplace at the time - SAC HQ near Omaha Nebraska.  I 

guess I decided after the wind challenge that I didn't really want to 

get my commercial license after all.  I suppose I could have 

continued on, but I probably came out just as well having a long 

career in the computer industry rather than aviation.

I had another brush with weather in Virginia about ten years 

later.  I was flying with my wife in a C-172XP over the Shenandoah 

valley.  According to the weather folks there was occasional moderate 

turbulence.  In those days, the definition of moderate turbulence was 

you only lose complete control over your aircraft for brief periods 

of time before regaining control.  I had a pack of cigarettes in my 

shirt pocket, and the cigarettes were jumping out of the pack and 

breaking on the ceiling of the cabin.  I tried to maintain 

maneuvering speed but could barely control my speed.  I don't know 

how I survived that flight, but when I managed to get over the hills 

into the Valley where Leesburg and Dulles airport are the turbulence 

stopped and the plane started flying nicely again.  That incident 

generated another 2 year period when I stopped flying.

Both of these incidents involved clear weather with situations I did 

not anticipate.  In both cases I really wondered how I was going to 

survive the experience and it took its toll on me.  For anyone lucky 

enough to have a trusted and talented instructor, your advice is 

wonderful.  Any other support people would also be a great help in 

these kinds of incidents.

I will relate one more small story and then shut up for a 

while.  Just before I transferred to SAC HQ I did a Summer in 

Northern Texas at a tech school at Sheppard AFB.  There was 

undergraduate pilot training conducted there and I flew aero club 

planes provided by the base.  I had to use Base Operations to 

retrieve and return the airplane keys, and the UPT students also had 

to start and end their flights there.  It seemed like there was 

always a young lieutenant with an ashen face nearly stumbling around 

Operations after one of his training flights.  They never said 

anything, but you could tell from one look they thought they just had 

a close brush with death.  I guess this is just another example of 

how scary flying can be at times. The good news is the guys you get 

to see and talk to are the ones who survived these incidents.

While I think flying a plane is a very safe activity, there is no 

denying the fact that there are real dangers out there.  I am always 

conscious of the dangers and I hope all airplane drivers keep safety 

as the first thing on their mind while flying.  This is a special 

problem for home builders because the fact you can do a wonderful job 

building an airplane doesn't say anything about your pilot skills.  I 

think there are lots of folks who build planes they really aren't 

qualified to fly.  Then, since they own the plane there is nobody to 

keep them from flying into situations they really should avoid.

Thanks again,

Paul

At 03:34 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Paul, I'm quoting you but this is really aimed at the low time pilots.

If something happens when you are flying that scares you to the 

point that you don't want to fly for a while the best bet is get 

with an instructor and fly ASAP.

It hasn't happened to me but I've seen it happen to others. This is 

especially true during the post-solo period of training.

Get back on the horse.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote:

 >

 >  I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a 

 few years after that.

 >

 >

 >  Paul

 >

-

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: XL Max Wind Landings

Hi Paul,

  

 Your story reminds me of my Private Pilot  Check ride many, many years ago in a C-150.  The check pilot had me land in  a 15 gusting to 25 kt direct crosswind. (there was a runway into the wind  available).  I had the rudder pedal to the floor, wings into the wind, no  flaps and still could not hold runway alignment so I went into a crab and kicked  it out just before touchdown.  The wind was pushing me across the runway on  rollout but I was still able to hold it with full aileron into the wind and  some braking - max X-wind landing I ever made.  I was spring  loaded  to go max power and get the heck out though.  (I did pass the  ride).

  

 I  have landed my XL with both wing  low approach and crab, but prefer a crab with the XL.  I usually use  full flaps for normal landings, but with gusts or a good X-wind I keep the flaps  (and approach speed) up.  I can land my XL fast (above stall) with no  flaps, but with full flaps landing speeds must be kept low with no  appreciable touch down vertical speed- or (on my XL) you WILL bounce it up, nose  high, into the air ((AND YOU MUST either add power, or more preferably GO  AROUND! ! - (The nose gear is tough though, you will land on the nose  first on the second touchdown if you try to hold it up without adding  power). Recommend do not press your luck)).

  

 I have flown my XL in some pretty gusty  conditions (have even had my headset shaken off my head) and in my opinion the  airplane handles ok for the conditions, but you must fly it and use the rudder  to help keep wings level..  Keeping your seat belt tight is a  must.

  

 All in all, I really enjoy flying the  XL.

  

 Tony  

  

  

                     Re: RE: XL Max Wind        Landings        From:              Paul Mulwitz (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net ([email]p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net?subject=Re:%20RE:%20XL%20Max%20Wind%20Landings&replyto=20070318200637.81501376F4(at)barracuda.matronics.com[/email]))        Date:              [b]Sun Mar 18 - 1:06        PM[/b]

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Tony,



I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but rule-of-thumb for 

any airplane is 1/3 VSo.  That would mean 20 Kts is a little high for 

the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . .



One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that 

exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway 

airport.  I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by 

adding some power to get the prop wash over the rudder.  It worked 

really well, so I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the 

plane.  I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for 

a few years after that.

Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 09:15 AM 3/18/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bill,

Glad you were able to make a great landing (airplane still 

flyable).  Max X-wind I have experienced to date has been about 12 

kts and no problem.  One of the things I like about the Jab is it 

can pull you out of trouble easily .

Curious as to where you got the info about 20 kts being the max 

X-wind for the XL.  I've been wondering about what it is.

Take care,

Tony Graziano

601XL; N493TG; 218hrs


	


---------------------------------------------

Paul Mulwitz

32013 NE Dial Road

Camas, WA 98607

	
	
   [quote][b]

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