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fiberglass cloth

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Does anyone know what the correct ACS part number for an equivalent to the Europa Fiberglass cloth?  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows

 Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 20:10

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Life is so unfair!  

  

   

Thanks John  

   

The aircraft is presently with Bob and I am awaiting his findings. At that time we will know more.  

Cheers for now  

   

Alan  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com

 Sent: 22 March 2007 23:18

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Life is so unfair!  

  

     

Hey Alan,  

    

   

    

My first tank came from the factory with a flaw in it. The tanks, as I was told, are rotomolded. What look like seams on the tank are actually molding lines. Mine had a molding flaw, likely caused by not enough material being put into the mold at the time the tank was cast, and that caused a hole in it that was about the size of the end of your little finger. The hole was hard to see because it was covered over with a paper thin layer of plastic. I would have never noticed it except for the fact that I pressure tested the tank with air after I drilled out the boss's in a combined effort to clean out the plastic swarf and put a little pressure on the tank to see what would happen. The slight pressure I put on the tank must have blown out the thin latyer and I got a little puff of air from a direction I wasn't expecting, then I noticed the hole.   

    

   

    

Europa promptly replaced the tank at no charge, but had I not noticed it prior to bonding in the cockpit module I think I'd have been one unhappy camper! At the time, circa 2003 or so, Andy told me there had been 2 others prior to mine found with similar holes.  

    

   

    

Anyway, hope you find your problem and it's something simple to fix.  

    



 Regards,  

    

   

    

John Lawton  

    

Dunlap,TN (TN89)  

    

Jabiropa N245E - Flying - 95.6 hours  

    

   

  

           

  

  

AOL now at AOL.com.   

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EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the factory BID was the Rutan cloth  RA7725

  

 Brian Skelly

Europa XS TriGear #A276

North Texas USA

You can see my build photos at:

http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS



=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably 

still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for 

drape). The UNI we use is 92145.

I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in 

Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good 

compared to UK prices.

Graham



EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the 

 factory BID was the Rutan cloth  RA7725

  

 Brian Skelly

 Europa XS TriGear #A276

 North Texas USA

 You can see my build photos at:

 http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

ptiller(at)lolacars.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Hi,



I'm sure the Europa factory supplies the cloth but if not, you can get it from Severn Valley Sailplanes in the UK.  See link:



http://www.svsp.co.uk/Shop%20Website/pages/composite_repair_materials.htm

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Thanks,



I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the Rutan

cloth is acceptable?



I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the

same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same

chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??



--

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Interglass is based where?



Is there any "standard" means of describing cloth?



Does 92125 mean anything or is it a part number?



As usual my eternal problem is getting stuff in sunny Bogota!!



For example the cloth that Andy suggested is ACS part number 7781 described

as "8.92 oz per sq yard medium weight standard industrial cloth thread count

60x54 strength 350x330 lb/in"  is this a standard way of describing cloth?



Would any cloth fulfilling these characteristics do?



Will



--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

I bought some of that 'Rutan' cloth recently and it seems to be exactly the 

same as the kit supplied stuff.



Karl





[quote]From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: fiberglass cloth

Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:18:56 -0500






Thanks,



I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the Rutan

cloth is acceptable?



I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the

same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same

chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Karl

it probably is, but there was some suspect cloth around a few years ago. 

The important thing is the weight, 280gms/sq meter, the sizing, 

(treatment to make the resin wet out the cloth properly) and the weave , 

which is 2 by 2 twill.

Graham



Karl Heindl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 I bought some of that 'Rutan' cloth recently and it seems to be exactly 

 the same as the kit supplied stuff.

 

 Karl

 

 005

daseitz(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

When I got my kit europa had the cloth sent to me from Aircraft Spruce. I

don't remember what it was exactly but a call to someone at europa 04 should

be able to tell you sinve they had it shipped from there.



Dean Seitz



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

William

I never realized you were in Colombia, I remember being at SnF the day 

Ivan sold three kits to a Comobian family, farmers I think.

Interglas are in Ulm, Germany. www.pd-interglas-technologies-ag.de/

You might be able to buy from these people,Streifly, suppliers to the 

glider industry. Interglas are probably too big for us. 

http://streifly.de/Preise4-00.htm, I found them most helpful and good 

price too.

I would be reluctant to use any old cloth, try and get one aproved by 

either Rutan, (the Messiah { or Europa. THe critical thing is the 

chemiocal sizing of the yarn to enhance the wetting by the resin.

My favourite Guru is Gary Hunter, he was Bruce Bohannon's crew chief on 

Pushy Galor and still is AFAIK. Very generous with his experience, he 

worked for Shell Resins a while ago.

Graham



I've copied one of Gary's emails for you, I don't think he'll mind. As I 

said, a generous man.



Technically, in the context of our canard aviation community, there is

absolutely no difference between what has been referred to as a

non-structural epoxy and a structural one.   They are all from the same

molecules.

Numerous people had asked Rutan Aircraft Factory about using West

Systems Epoxy.  After all, it was readily available in most parts of

country - and the world for that matter.   Well, we all know that Burt

Rutan is rather liability conscious, and if a resin system had not been

tested and flown in an actual prototype or part of some sort, it was not

approved for his aircraft designs - PERIOD.   So, if I recall correctly,

one of Rutan's Canard Pusher newsletters, responded to the builder

inquiries and West Systems was dubbed a "non-structural" epoxy.  It was

OK for making micro fill and wheel pants and such.  But, no major

structural components.

Furthermore, the makers of West System (Gougeon Brothers - pronounce

goo-zhan)did not seem to promote the use of the West Systems product

line for aircraft construction.    Gougeon Brothers is a customer of

mine.  So, about 3-5 years ago, I quizzed them on why this was so.  They

said that in years past their insurance underwriter did not want the

liability associated with homebuilt aircraft.  The product was intended

for the boat building, repair and restoration market.   However, they

had recently secured another insurance underwriter that did not have

such reservations about homebuilt aircraft.  In fact, their website had

a photo gallery of the many different projects their customers had

completed using the West Systems epoxy, and many aircraft were included

- mostly wood / fiberglass aircraft, like the KR2s, and Ospreys and

such.  I don't recall seeing any Vari-Eze's or Long-EZ's.  Today, if you

visit the Gougeon's West Systems home page http://www.westsystems.com ,

there are numerous examples of all composite structural articles being

made from the West Systems product line.

At about the time I was quizzing Gougeon about the West Systems epoxy,

they were introducing their new Pro-Set epoxy product line.  Apparently,

they had recognized a new market was emerging and decided to put their

best foot forward.   This product line was developed for more demanding

end-uses including all composite aircraft.   Rutan did approve one of

their early formulations for the construction of his plans  designs -

the Pros-Set 125 / 229.  The website for Pro-Set shows a photo of the

Proteus that was made from Pro-Set resins formulations.

http://www.prosetepoxy.com   Note the statements about post cures in

their literature.

Frankly, I cannot understand why anyone would pay so much for the

convenience of being able to buy an epoxy at the local marine or auto

supply.  West Systems is at least $3.00 / lb. more expensive than the

most costly alternative "structural epoxy".   But, some people drive

Fords, and some people drive Mercurys.

One thing is for certain.  Gougeon Brothers is perhaps the industry

benchmark for technical support.   Their on-line literature, books,

manuals, and newsletters are top notch - excellent reading.  They even

sell ratio pumps for their Pro-Set resin systems.

Gary Hunter

Technical Service Representative EPOXY RESINS TECHNICAL INQUIRY

RESOLUTION PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS

Toll Free in North America       - 800-832-3766

International                           - 281-544-6010

Facsimile                               - 817-421-7515

Email                                    - tec.epon(at)resins.com

William Daniell wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Interglass is based where?

 

 Is there any "standard" means of describing cloth?

 

 Does 92125 mean anything or is it a part number?

 

 As usual my eternal problem is getting stuff in sunny Bogota!!

 

 For example the cloth that Andy suggested is ACS part number 7781 described

 as "8.92 oz per sq yard medium weight standard industrial cloth thread count

 60x54 strength 350x330 lb/in"  is this a standard way of describing cloth?

 

 Would any cloth fulfilling these characteristics do?

 

 Will

 

 --

bberube(at)tampabay.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Most of the cloth used on the Europa's sold in North America was the Rutan 

Cloth.  To my knowledge every composite kit manufactured in the US that has 

wet layups uses the Rutan cloth , BID as well as UNI.



As Graham mentioned, a number of years ago there was another supplier other 

than Aircraft Spruce and Wicks selling BID.  It was not approved for 

aircraft and finally put out of business.  If you order from Spruce or 

Wicks, you will get the correct BID.



Spruce part number for BID:  RA7725

Spruce part number for UNI:  RA7715



Bob Berube

Flight Crafters

---

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Thanks appreciate your help

Rutan it is then

Will



--

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Hi Bob

Any news with my fuel leak ?



Alan



--

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: fiberglass cloth

Yes - I came out here for a year in 1993...and well one thing lead to

another and here I am, 14 years later with a half built kit in the garage.



I regularly travel with my purchases from ACS.



There is a thriving aviation community here and the flying is interesting -

in a two hour flight you go from 8500 agl to less than 1000 and back to over

14000 and then back to msl.  - as a result it gets bumpy after about 0900 as

the winds get up.



Come and visit.  We already had one club member visit last year.  Also I met

a French guy in the local field with a 172 which he bought in Montreal.  He

was on his way BACK from Patagonia (where he said the wind is routinely over

50kmh) ...

 

Will



--

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