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taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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Tom-- you making a mountain out of mole hill---- no big deal= do nothing, just build the rudder. ZAC has to be careful how they word things due to the nature of their business.
Fritz
Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos. He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I can install another doubler in that area. Of course, these are recommendations, and each situation is unique. If you encounter a similar situation, you are best off seeking advice specific to your situation. The following disclaimer at the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates this pretty well:
"Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advise or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advise or information supplied. "
As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD.
I plan to continue construction as-is. Adding a doubler in that location would mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without causing additional damage.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]BTW I am not an "anal engineer." I am an electrical engineer that happens to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business today.
On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega < amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>
if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
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tommylutz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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Fritz,
I appreciate the point of view you and Juan hold, as well as the other views that have been presented to me. As a first time aircraft builder and a person who has experience with unrelated mission critical hardware, it is in my character to question minute defects and pursue them to the fullest extent that I can until a resolution is found. I can have no question that the structural integrity of the airplane I am building is 100%.
That being said, I realize this was a small defect, and that it was probably not a problem, but I wanted a answers from several independent sources before I drew any conclusions. Hind-sight is 20/20, and guess what? You guys are the ones with hind-sight, not me!
THANK YOU ALL for responding to my seemingly worthless question. As a first time builder, it means a lot. So far I have been thoroughly impressed with the support of both ZAC and this online community.
I've decided, after pressing out the small dent, to finish the rudder without adding an additional doubler.
Cheers,
Tom
On 3/30/07, Big Gee <taffy0687(at)yahoo.com (taffy0687(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] Tom-- you making a mountain out of mole hill---- no big deal= do nothing, just build the rudder. ZAC has to be careful how they word things due to the nature of their business.
Fritz
Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos. He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I can install another doubler in that area. Of course, these are recommendations, and each situation is unique. If you encounter a similar situation, you are best off seeking advice specific to your situation. The following disclaimer at the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates this pretty well:
"Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advise or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advise or information supplied. "
As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD.
I plan to continue construction as-is. Adding a doubler in that location would mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without causing additional damage.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]BTW I am not an "anal engineer." I am an electrical engineer that happens to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz(at)gmail.com (tommylutz(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business today.
On 3/30/07, Juan Vega < amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega < amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>
if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
--
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naumuk(at)alltel.net
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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Tom-
Good engineers are conditioned to continually ask "What's wrong with this picture?" The problem is, when there's an anomoly, they instinctively shift to "Find root cause" mode and don't quit until they identify and rectify the problem. This is time consuming. From your first string of posts, I'd say you can throw the 400hr build time out the window.
What you have to do to make the best use of time spent is approach anomolies the same way as you would MRB.
(For those of you who don't know what Material Review Board is, it's a joint engineering/quality assurance decision of whether non-conforming parts coming off a production line are usable as-is, usable with rework, or should be scrapped).
Eventually, you'll gain the experience to make the call on your own 90% of the time. For the other 10%, you'll have to rely on outside sources.
1. If a lister is reliable (i.e. has a flying project with 100's of hours on it or has already worked around an anomoly to the satisfaction of Zenith, EAA, or the FAA) and offers a suggestion, how can you bring up the question of hindsight? He's already been there, done that!
2. You're an engineer. Decide for yourself whether a better approach than what Mexico, Mo. recommends hasn't been offered. Were you aware that one of the guys on the HH DVD was the President of Zenair, Canada? Did you stop to think about what you were trying to achieve? I'm deburring a hole. I want to knock off the burrs while at the same time taking off as little of the "Good" metal as possible. With a shallower cut angle, a 1/2" drill might fit the application better. Think about it!
From personal experience, I advise that you don't get complacent but at the same time you don't automatically reject suggestions from sources other than Mexico, Mo. No matter how careful you are, sooner or later, you will fail a construction step and have to rebuild. Just trying to cushion the blow.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
[quote] ---
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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I agree with Bill;
I am in the process of having a 1/4" counterbore re-worked to change the angle from 180 to 170. I want to try this as a finger spun deburring tool. The advantage is that I can put whatever pilot diameter in it to keep it centered.
Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote:
[quote] Tom-
Good engineers are conditioned to continually ask "What's wrong with this picture?" The problem is, when there's an anomoly, they instinctively shift to "Find root cause" mode and don't quit until they identify and rectify the problem. This is time consuming. From your first string of posts, I'd say you can throw the 400hr build time out the window.
What you have to do to make the best use of time spent is approach anomolies the same way as you would MRB.
(For those of you who don't know what Material Review Board is, it's a joint engineering/quality assurance decision of whether non-conforming parts coming off a production line are usable as-is, usable with rework, or should be scrapped).
Eventually, you'll gain the experience to make the call on your own 90% of the time. For the other 10%, you'll have to rely on outside sources.
1. If a lister is reliable (i.e. has a flying project with 100's of hours on it or has already worked around an anomoly to the satisfaction of Zenith, EAA, or the FAA) and offers a suggestion, how can you bring up the question of hindsight? He's already been there, done that!
2. You're an engineer. Decide for yourself whether a better approach than what Mexico, Mo. recommends hasn't been offered. Were you aware that one of the guys on the HH DVD was the President of Zenair, Canada? Did you stop to think about what you were trying to achieve? I'm deburring a hole. I want to knock off the burrs while at the same time taking off as little of the "Good" metal as possible. With a shallower cut angle, a 1/2" drill might fit the application better. Think about it!
From personal experience, I advise that you don't get complacent but at the same time you don't automatically reject suggestions from sources other than Mexico, Mo. No matter how careful you are, sooner or later, you will fail a construction step and have to rebuild. Just trying to cushion the blow.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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Just to ensure proper representation. I am the President of Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. Zenair is a different facility altogether and it’s president Is Chris Heintz. Though, Zenair has removed itself from the sales aspect of the business, it still is a manufacturing facility and research center. Can-Zac Aviation is the Canadian sales and Canadian Builders Support center.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)
www.can-zacaviation.com
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naumuk(at)alltel.net
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
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Mark-
I stand corrected. My point was, you've "Been there, done that".
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
[quote] ---
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