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Starter grinding noise

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Sounds like one of those wait 'n see things Don.  Actually, pulling a 582 to

get to the starter isn't much of a deal and getting the starter off to have

a good look at it is less of a deal so if I were you, I'd pull it and check

the cause of the grinding noise.  There should be some visible evidence of

it somewhere.  Here's why.

Way back when, at a flyin, I prepared to leave and when I tried to start up,

the engine locked up.  I could hear the starter engage, but the engine

wouldn't turn.  I got out, moved the prop back and forth a few times, then

when I tried to start it, it locked again.  This time I successfully hand

propped it.  I then (stupidly) flew the 40 minutes home uneventfully,

wondering what sort of problem would cause that.  During the flight the more

I thought about it, the more I worried about what could have been the cause,

so I pulled it into the workshop, pulled the engine and found a big surprise

that made my hair stand up.  The first thing was the 4g ground strap from

the starter to the engine mount was only hanging by a couple wires, but it

was only visible with the engine out of the airplane.  The next thing I

found, the one that gave me the chills, (drum roll please) was the flywheel

was cracked almost completely across.  The crack emanated from one of the

gear teeth radiating inward toward the bolt hole.  One side was all the way

with a gap of about 1/8 inch at the teeth.  The other side didn't go all the

way and there was about an inch of metal holding the flywheel together near

the bolt hole.  It was very close to coming apart!  What happened when the

engine locked up (the best I could deduce) was that a starter tooth had

lodged in the crack gap causing it to bind, but moving the prop back and

forth released it.  What made me cringe about it all was the thought of what

it would have been like if at 6000 rpm on a climb over hostile territory

(much of it around here) that thing decided to come apart with nothing but

that flimsy firewall between me and it.

Anyway, I called Jerry at Greensky Adventures, a Rotax guru at the time, and

he told me that there was an SB on that and he had a new and improved

flywheel for me, which I received in the mail in a few days, including new

bolts.  The new flywheel was about 50 percent thicker.  My engine was one of

the older 582s with a B box so I'm sure that at some point the engines were

all upgraded with the new flywheels.  Something to check out if you have an

old one.  You may even be able to check it with the engine in the airplane

using a mirror and good light.  Pretty simple to check by serial number and

I'm sure that Lockwood or any of the Rotax reps would have information on

it.  I think the SB # was SB-505-04, but I'm not sure about that.  It was a

simple change out with no special tools required.

The reason I took the time to write all this Don is because of the

importance of checking out anything that doesn't sound right, especially

mechanical noises.  I hope this doesn't sound like a lecture, but things

have a habit of happening in the worst possible places and at the worst

possible times.  Good luck and keep us posted if you find anything else.

Deke

Ps:  Here's a listing of the SBs for the Rotax 2-strokes

http://www.rotax-owner.com/sdocs.htm



---

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Don you also need to think about the starter grinding the starter gear   and the metal shavings winding up on the magnets of the fly wheel and  starter this happens naturally and is a maintenance cleaning issue  mal 



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Deke,

    I remember it well. Remember, I built it.  I remember the old flywheel 

thread long ago and If  I remember correctly, I have the new/beefier 

flywheel.

    My hard decision is this, I have a real good potential buyer coming  mid 

next week.  I need to take him for a check ride.  If he decides to buy, I 

can then remove the engine and make any and all repairs.  I already have an 

understanding with him that "we" will spend several days together doing a 

full conditions inspection before I will deliver the plane to him.  The big 

decision???  Risk one more flight or not??



Thanks,

Don Smythe

---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Don,



I think you know risk = no.  Even best case, if he

sees you take such a risk he will wonder what other

risks you took in construction and probably back out. 

Better to git-er-done and reschedule the

flight/inspection for later.



Just my opinion,



Kurt S.



--- Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Deke,

     I remember it well. Remember, I built it.  I

 remember the old flywheel 

 thread long ago and If  I remember correctly, I have

 the new/beefier 

 flywheel.

     My hard decision is this, I have a real good

 potential buyer coming  mid 

 next week.  I need to take him for a check ride.  If

 he decides to buy, I 

 can then remove the engine and make any and all

 repairs.  I already have an 

 understanding with him that "we" will spend several

 days together doing a 

 full conditions inspection before I will deliver the

 plane to him.  The big 

 decision???  Risk one more flight or not??

 

 Thanks,

 Don Smythe


	




 

Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast

with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Kurt,

I just hate good opinions don't you?  I'm going to head out early tomorrow 

pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench.  I had already just 

about come to that conclusion but your email tipped the scale.  How knows, I 

just might be able to pull this off and get her back in the air by mid next 

week.



Thanks

Don Smythe

Do Not Archive



---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

You're welcome Don,



I hear the relief.  I knew you already knew the

answer.  You wrote the question like you were asking

for the car keys to go out and do a little drag racing

because you were invited, but you really didn't want

to go.  You knew better.  You just needed an out so

you could do the right thing, which you already had a

plan for.    I just confirmed it is all.



For that I'll charge you one visit next time you are

in Florida.    No pre-exposure to epoxy though...





Dr Kurt S.  ha ha



Noes poeseeblay archivus



--- Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:

 

[quote] Kurt,

 I just hate good opinions don't you?  I'm going to

 head out early tomorrow 

 pull that little sucker and put it on the work

 bench.  I had already just 

 about come to that conclusion but your email tipped

 the scale.  How knows, I 

 just might be able to pull this off and get her back

 in the air by mid next week.

 

 Thanks

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

 

 ---

alnanarthur(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Don,



How does your starter  disconnect from the crank after the engine   

has started?  The 912 has a sprag clutch,

which  is a centrifugal  clutch which grabs the crank to start the  

engine then as the engine goes faster  then the

starter it disconnects.  This is what failed in my engine.   I've  

looked at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582

and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.



My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin- 

up without turning the engine. Once I heard a

scraping noise.



Have  you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?

Allan Arthur

Kitfox 5, N40AA

Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade

Byron Airport, CA  (C83)  Hanger C8



On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kurt,

 I just hate good opinions don't you?  I'm going to head out early  

 tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench.  I  

 had already just about come to that conclusion but your email  

 tipped the scale.  How knows, I just might be able to pull this off  

 and get her back in the air by mid next week.



 Thanks

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Starter grinding noise

I think the 582 starter uses a Bendix type of connection, similar to an

automobile starter.

Deke



---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Allan,

    My starter is similar to an auto starter.  When it spins up it throws 

the gear fwd to engage the flywheel.  Once the engine starts, it throws is 

aft again.  At least, I think.

    I just came home from pulling the engine.  Everything lookes good and 

clean with no abnormal wear on the flywheel or starter gears.  There was no 

evidence of metal dust anywhere.

    The only thing I have left to do is pull the rear cover off the starter 

and inspect the brushes.  This is where I stopped until someone can tell me 

what to expect when I pull that cover off.  I once had a nightmare pulling 

the back cover off a tractor starter.  As I said before, parts flew 

everywhere.  Didn't you say that you have had the brushes out of your 

starter.  Can you tell me if there is a nightmare ahead or are there any 

tricks to removing that aft cover?????

    I haven't talked to anyone yet.  Was waiting to get the engine out and 

get a look see.  I'd appreciate a quick response since I'm up against the 

clock.  BTW, the clutch action on my starter gear is nice a free.

Don Smythe

 	  Quote: 	

 How does your starter  disconnect from the crank after the engine   has 

 started?  The 912 has a sprag clutch,

 which  is a centrifugal  clutch which grabs the crank to start the  engine 

 then as the engine goes faster  then the

 starter it disconnects.  This is what failed in my engine.   I've  looked 

 at the drawings in the Lockwood catalog for the 582

 and I don't see how this connect/disconnect is accomplished.

 My starting action became jerky and sometimes the starter would spin- up 

 without turning the engine. Once I heard a

 scraping noise.

 Have  you talked to Kerry at Lockwood?

 Allan Arthur

 Kitfox 5, N40AA

 Rotax 912ULS, Warpdrive 3 blade

 Byron Airport, CA  (C83)  Hanger C8

 On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Don Smythe wrote:

> 

>

> Kurt,

> I just hate good opinions don't you?  I'm going to head out early 

> tomorrow pull that little sucker and put it on the work bench.  I  had 

> already just about come to that conclusion but your email  tipped the 

> scale.  How knows, I just might be able to pull this off  and get her 

> back in the air by mid next week.

>

> Thanks

> Don Smythe

> Do Not Archive

davef(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Don,



Here is what is inside 

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/582electricstart/1.html



You can usually source out the brushes and holders at a automotive shop or 

Bob Robertson. They are just Denso parts   I would put a new starter drive 

in as well and They are pretty well an exclusive item.   But if you going to 

stater shop take the starter if you do not know what you doing and get the 

armature checked as well. Although It most likely ok but might need turning.



Just gotta ask the right people who have done these 



Simple job.  We book 2 hours R & R engine + .5 hour for  a starter over haul 

Plus parts.

Dave

---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Dave,



I'm trying to be a little on the rush side.  However, I fully understand 

that you can only rush so much.  My starter is working just fine after 

replacing and cleaning all the grounds and hot wires.   All I want to do 

right now is pull the rear end of the starter and check for any wear and 

tear plus the condition of the brushes.  I really feel I need to go this 

extra mile since pulling the engine ain't fun.  My "BIG" concern is, how 

many parts fly out of the starter when the rear cover is removed?  Are there 

any tricks to performing this little task.  I've been into a few starters 

and realize they can be a bear putting back together.  Just looking for some 

first hand tips.  If I hadn't heard that little grinding noise, I wouldn't 

have pulled the engine.  However by pulling the engine I've uncovered a 

couple little things that did need attention.  So, pulling the engine wasn't 

a complete waste and might be something that others might consider if it's 

been several years since first installation.  If I find a problem with the 

brushes, that will be the next step.  I need to get this thing back 100% by 

the first of next week (If possible).



Thanks,

Don Smythe



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

It is a Bendix style engagement.



Sprague clutches are famous for chattering.  It amazes me that it is Sprague

clutches that transfer the power to the rotors of most helicopters....

Without the Sprague clutch autorotation would be impossible.  This is what

frightens me about the Airscooter design....  With an engine out you change

form a flying machine to an anchor with the chain let go.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

davef(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: Starter grinding noise

Don,



I would call a Rotax shop to confirm your findings and get parts sent out if 

needed over night ......  This is a short week though.  Starter drives can 

do funny things as well.   Just make sure of slides ok on the splines and 

thast the clutch inside that drive is working properly.  Ask your Rotax guy 

but it sounds electrical possibly other than the noise.



Also ask your Rotax shop for proper tightening of starter amd you check with 

a feeler gauge and set for 1 mm ( about .040 ) Too tight and that starter 

housing will break (300 to 350 $ for those)  The Studs go throught a stack 

of 2 diferent sizes of  o rings.



Dave

---

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