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crossing the grear lakes

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atrent7(at)cogeco.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

With a life jacket and strobe, they might at least have found his  

body. If they had found him withiin the first hour, he might have  

even survived. He went down in late april, at that time of year, that  

lake is COLD. It never gets very warm that far off shore. If you go  

down in Lake Michigan any time of year, you'd better have a life raft  

or imersion suit or you won't survive very long.

A  friend of mine used to cross Lake Ontario regularly. He always carried a life jacket and his brother said to him one day "better you should carry a big rock, you wouldn't suffer as long"

							alex t

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tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

Or you could load the cabin of your plane with inflated balloons



On 4/7/07, alex trent <atrent7(at)cogeco.ca (atrent7(at)cogeco.ca)> wrote: [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent < atrent7(at)cogeco.ca (atrent7(at)cogeco.ca)>

With a life jacket and strobe, they might at least have found his

body. If they had found him withiin the first hour, he might have

even survived. He went down in late april, at that time of year, that 

lake is COLD. It never gets very warm that far off shore. If you go

down in Lake Michigan any time of year, you'd better have a life raft

or imersion suit or you won't survive very long.

A  friend of mine used to cross Lake Ontario regularly. He always carried a life jacket and his brother said to him one day "better you should carry a big rock, you wouldn't suffer as long"  [quote][b]

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

<<Water ditching>>



I have thought about this quite a few times as I live amongst the great 

lakes (Iron Mountain, Michigan). I'm sure that minimal exposure to the need 

to ditch in the water is the best prevention (ie. fly high, fly across 

islands or fly around water etc.). However in the event of a water ditching, 

I assume that for whatever length of time the aircraft stays at the surface, 

regardless of how it enters or flips, it will most likely float with the 

nose down, tail up due to the weight of the engine(assuming a low wing 

airplane). In that attitude it is not a very good platform to support a 

person. It will probably not stay at the surface for long as the water 

entering all the openings will quickly force out the air and thereby 

buoyancy. It seems the trick would be to add permanent buoyancy to the 

structure. This could be done by sealing enough of the spaces to retain 

their buoyancy or filling them with a light medium. A possible side effect 

of  sealing a chamber would be the positive or negative air pressure which 

could deform the structure to the point of unairworthyness. Filling chambers 

with, lets say,  foam, could cause a corrosion problem also. One cubic foot 

of foam or air space should displace about 36 pounds of water, so it would 

take about 20 cubic feet of floatation to hold up a 720 pound craft. That 

works out to 10 spaces the size of a 12 gallon fuel tank. (I don't know how 

many cans of 'Great Stuff' that would take). I would be interested to read 

of someone else's work or experience with this situation.



I've decided to do nothing at this point, but the thoughts are still there! 

And now I have let you into my brain and exposed myself to praise, ridicule 

or something in between.



Aaron Gustafson           do not archive

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: Re: crossing the grear lakes

Howard Hughes often filled sea planes with ping pong balls to provide flotation with minimal weight. There is a lot of room inside the wings and fuselage for that sort of thing.



Maybe create a space-specific form, fill the form with balls and add expansion foam to fill the voids. That would create a very light, tight floatation block that wouldn't rattle with lose ping pong balls.



You'd need about 14,000 ping pong balls (15 balls/lb of lift x 900 lbs). That would cost you about $3000, maybe less for a bulk purchase. 



Ping Pong balls only fill about 50% of the volume they occupy, so the foam filler idea above would improve that considerbly - perhaps you'd need 40% less ping pong balls - or about 8,400 balls instead.



Just a recycled idea.



http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2004/11/mythbusters_ping_pong_balls_an.html

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David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Re: crossing the grear lakes

My previous post was a tongue in cheek comment. I feel compelled to amend it in case someone thought I was serious and started a Google search for bulk ping pong balls.   



I think that faced with a forced landing over water, you should do what sailors do when faced with a sinking ship. You have a self-inflatable emergency raft complete with survival gear, food etc. They don’t weigh that much. They're a little expensive, but what is your life worth?



Otherwise, fly around the water.

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

 	  Quote: 	
		   Howard Hughes often filled sea planes with ping pong balls to provide

flotation with minimal weight.
	




If you tour the Spruce Goose at its home in McMinnville, OR

(www.sprucegoose.org/) a beach ball is on display. During the restoration of

the plane they found it in a cavity in the plane. The description says that

before the Goose's initial (and only) flight Hughes became concerned and had

various parts of the plane stuffed with the toys.



<quote>

According to an old-timer at Hughes, when the Spruce Goose flying boat was

flight-tested, it was filled with beach balls instead of the traditional

Ping-Pong balls used when testing most sea planes. Every available beach

ball in Los Angeles was purchased for the flight test. After the flight

test, the beach balls were handed out to the spectators. In retrospect, this

probably shows that Hughes did not intend to fly the aircraft again.

<end quote>



http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Hughes_Aircraft



http://tinyurl.com/ytgyhk



-- Craig



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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

I would not use ping pong balls.  Have you ever lit one on fire as a kid?

It is pretty close to weapons grade explosives.



Gary Ray

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: crossing the great lakes

Regarding water temps....  I have been on diving expeditions that were 20-30 miles offshore in both L. Huron and L. Michigan.   July and August temps may hit the upper 60's at the surface, especially if there have been a few calm days with lots of sun.   During such times if you have to ditch you have a fair window of survivability if you can get the message out for someone to come looking for you.   Even into October you can see temps in the 50's.



Forget about crossing L. Superior without a survival suit.  That Lake never warms up much above 50.  



I always wear a lifejacket when crossing.... hopes for survival aside, it is easier to collect on life insurance when they find a body.



Tim

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David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: crossing the grear lakes

 	  davgray(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  I would not use ping pong balls.  Have you ever lit one on fire as a kid? It is pretty close to weapons grade explosives. 	




It was a joke!



Now I know why I keep reading this forum. LOL

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

All joking aside, the idea might have merit for filling floats, 2nd line of

defense against a leaking float leaving your plane with one wingtip stuck in

the bottom.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN

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--

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: crossing the grear lakes

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  This was written up in one of the mags, maybe Sport Aviation----A few years  ago some guy flew an ultralight from almost the tip of South America to the  US  (maybe Oshkosh.) He filled his wings with inflated condoms to assure  flotation if he went down over water. At one of his beachfront landings, the  police thought he was a drug smuggler, then let him go. If it were up to me, I'd  prefer not to use styrofoam, or equivalent, or seal too tight for fear of  collecting moisture that couldn't be blown away in flight.

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

 (Yep. still on that *&^T%%$#(at)canopy)

 [quote]   ---

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