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Canopy front seal

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marcorispoli(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: Canopy front seal

Hello everyone. I have been lurking around this email list for a while (and I pop in a question or two occasionally). I haven't started building yet and I am still on the sidelines as to what I want to build, although after a year or more of browsing around I seem to come back to the XL more and more. In fact at the end of the day, it seems like the airplane that fits my mission profile #2 most perfectly: easy, simple, reasonable price (my mission profile #1 is an airplane that burns 3gph, travels at 550kts, carries 6 people and is capable of at least 1000fpm climb at altitudes above FL600, with unlimited vertical and horizontal visibility so I can take pics of the Space Shuttle when it's on approach. If anyone knows about such a kit, please let me know, otherwise I am going to have to settle for the Zenith kit. Thanks!)

  

 Jokes aside, the XL really does fit what I want (and most importantly, what I can build). In the past year I was able to get a close look at a dozen of them and managed to scrounge rides in a couple of them. It was most impressive. The visibility is absolutely to die for and it handles like a little jet-fighter. For someone (like me) that comes from years of heavy-ass Cherokees, it's a breath of fresh air.

  

 One of the things I noticed that bugged me a lot is the canopy front seal. It looks iffy and I have noticed that in some cases there was a visible gap at the lower extremities between the canopy seal and the fuselage. In my experience I have flown in VFR weather and yet a few sparse clouds have had the temerity of taking a (significant) twinkle on me, even if ceilings were high and visibility was unlimited. So, for what i have seen, precipitation (in spring time especially) can be crazy-funny and doesn't necessarily have to come with IFR weather or even marginal VFR. 

  

 Hence, I get the feeling that in most of those planes I saw, there wouldn't have been any way to prevent water from getting into the cockpit in flight (I am sure that there's gotta be a way to seal those gaps when the plane is parked ... maybe a canopy cover or something).

  

 Even if I decide to stick to VFR flying (which, I can't really promise  ), I can't possibly stay on the ground with 20 miles of vis and ceilings at 6000 if rain decides to drop.

  

 In all your experience as builders, have you figured out a way or saw a solution where the front canopy seal was made water proof? I know that real-life planes are anything BUT water proof, even my Cherokee gets water if it rains hard, but one thing is a drop or two of water, a completely different thing is a full one inch opening, right in front of the canopy and when you are flying, rain comes at you horizontally, not from the top. 

  

 Has anybody given any thought to this?

  

 Any insight, opinions or pictures of the front seal, are welcome. 

  

 Thank you!!

  

 Marco Rispoli

  

 NJ - Central Jersey/47N

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Canopy front seal

I've seen serveral, including the factory plane, that weren't sealed well. Some do it on purpose for ventilation or so they say. I've also seen on that was sealed so well you could hit it with a high pressure hose and not get any leaks.



As someone that is in the canopy attachment phase at this time I think it can be done where it will provide a good seal. It will just be a matter of using the proper rubber gasket and some trial and error will be required.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Canopy front seal

That front seal can be made water tight, it takes careful trimming  

and test fitting of the canopy during construction. I logged 96 hours  

on building and fitting the canopy on my plane. It's one of the more  

time consuming parts of the construction process. I have gotten a  

little water in the cabin when it was tied outdoors during heavy  

rains, I think it was coming in around the hinge area. I don't have  

any gaps in the seal in flight.



On Apr 8, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Marco Rispoli wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 In all your experience as builders, have you figured out a way or  

 saw a solution where the front canopy seal was made water proof? I  

 know that real-life planes are anything BUT water proof, even my  

 Cherokee gets water if it rains hard, but one thing is a drop or  

 two of water, a completely different thing is a full one inch  

 opening, right in front of the canopy and when you are flying, rain  

 comes at you horizontally, not from the top.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Canopy front seal

I have been wondering the same thins about the lip seal. What actually causes potential gaps? Is it loose trimming of the bubble? Is it not having the lip seal fitted so that th lip actually works? Does the forward deck skin deflect locally and unpredictably thereby allowing leaks?



Has anyone thought of building the forward skin as a sandwich structure to give the lip seal a "rigid" but lightweight seating surface?



Comments?



Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



I've seen serveral, including the factory plane, that weren't sealed well. Some do it on purpose for ventilation or so they say. I've also seen on that was sealed so well you could hit it with a high pressure hose and not get any leaks.



As someone that is in the   Don't get soaked.  Take a[url= http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news] quick peek at the forecast [/url]

 with the[url= http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail&#news]Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.[/url] [quote][b]

marcorispoli(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: Canopy front seal

I was actually thinking about some sort of "splash-guard" right in front of the seal. Doesn't have to be big, just tall enough to deflect water upwards and away from the seal, while in flight. Dunno if it would work. 

  

 When parked, you can find all sorts of sealing solutions to keep the water out. 



Just a thought ... 

 [quote]  Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:39:40 -0700

From: planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Re: Canopy front seal

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



I have been wondering the same thins about the lip seal. What actually causes potential gaps? Is it loose trimming of the bubble? Is it not having the lip seal fitted so that th lip actually works? Does the forward deck skin deflect locally and unpredictably thereby allowing leaks?



Has anyone thought of building the forward skin as a sandwich structure to give the lip seal a "rigid" but lightweight seating surface?



Comments?



Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



I've seen serveral, including the factory plane, that weren't sealed well. Some do it on purpose for ventilation or so they say. I've also seen on that was sealed so well you could hit it with a high pressure hose and not get any leaks.



As someone that is in the   Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast 

with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.  	  Quote: 	
		  



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

p://forums.matronics.com



	
	
[b]

tshankland(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: Canopy front seal

What I did on mine was to go to Advance Auto and buy a roll of  weather seal tape. The stuff I got is about 1/8 inch thick and about 1/2/ to 3/4 inch wide. I put it down on the fuselage just behind where the rubber seal for the canopy hits. This way anyplace that the canopy seal doesn't touch metal it will the rubber seal. This provides an additional benefit. If any rain leaks past the canopy seal during flight it will be directed to the sides and down.

 

 Tim Shankland

 

 David Downey wrote: [quote]I have been wondering the same thins about the lip seal. What actually causes potential gaps? Is it loose trimming of the bubble? Is it not having the lip seal fitted so that th lip actually works? Does the forward deck skin deflect locally and unpredictably thereby allowing leaks?

   

 Has anyone thought of building the forward skin as a sandwich structure to give the lip seal a "rigid" but lightweight seating surface?

   

 Comments?

   

   Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net) wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 

     

 I've seen serveral, including the factory plane, that weren't sealed well. Some do it on purpose for ventilation or so they say. I've also seen on that was sealed so well you could hit it with a high pressure hose and not get any leaks.

     

 As someone that is in the      Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast 

 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.      	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
   	
 [b]

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: Canopy front seal

I'de like to see that !!   I've never seen one that did not leak includeing 

the factory built ones.  Not to mention mine...                        Joe 

N101HD

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Canopy front seal

I've owned two Cessnas (182 & 172) and an Aeronca Champ.  All leaked somewhat despite my best attempts to seal them.  On a historical note, DC3 crews were provided with rubber aprons to wear while flying in rain.



I haven't got to the canopy install phase yet but I suspect the amount of seal you'll get will be directly proportional to the amount of effort you want to put into fitting it.   All designs are a compromise and I for one appreciate the KISS principle that guided the design of the XL.



Tim Juhl

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

dbortol

Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 46

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Canopy front seal

The canopy fitting method described at http://ch601.org/resources/canopy_install/Canopyfitting2.pdf has been mentioned a few times. If you look at page 7, there are a few pictures of the front canopy area. At this point, the canopy had been marked, cut, and hadn't even been sanded smooth yet, but you can already see how tight the fit is.   



Dino Bortolin



On 4/8/07, Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net (juhl(at)avci.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net (juhl(at)avci.net)>



I've owned two Cessnas (182 & 172) and an Aeronca Champ.  All leaked somewhat despite my best attempts to seal them.  On a historical note, DC3 crews were provided with rubber aprons to wear while flying in rain. 



I haven't got to the canopy install phase yet but I suspect the amount of seal you'll get will be directly proportional to the amount of effort you want to put into fitting it.   All designs are a compromise and I for one appreciate the KISS principle that guided the design of the XL. 



Tim Juhl



CFII

Champ L16A flying

Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A

Working on wings

[b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: Canopy front seal

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I haven't got to the canopy install phase yet but I suspect the  

 amount of seal you'll get will be directly proportional to the  

 amount of effort you want to put into fitting it.



 Tim Juhl




	


You got that right.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

pbaker4(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Canopy front seal

I purchased a 601hs last september.I have actually  flown

 the plane in rain. My problem is not from rail  coming in

 from the front but from the rear. In flight, a low  preasure

 area forms over the back side of the canopy. this  caused

 the canopy to lift slightly, just enough to direct  some

 raindrops to the back of my neck..very nice in the  summertime to keep cool , but in the winter,brrrr.My solution, Keep out of the  rain is possible. any other 

 solutions would be appreciated.

  

 paul baker

   [quote][b]

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