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The Perfect Engine

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

Hi All,  (and specifically John H.),



  I have yet to fly my MkIII.  There has been a lot of talk re: direct drive 

vs. redrive, Rotax vs. everything else, etc.    In regards to a MkIII.... 

what is the best engine power system you feel is the absolute best for a 

Kolb....all things considered??



   Now, I realize this can open up a HUGE can of worms, but if a person had 

to rattle off all the items on their wishlist, what would it include in the 

way of engines on a Kolb?



   In other words....I have a Suzuki 1.0 (Raven) Redrive, with an Ivo 3 

blade (72") electric in-flight adjustable prop.   The engine is purportedly 

to be about 62 (??) HP.    Does this seem like a fairly reasonable 

engine/prop combination, or is it really dumb??   Would this power be close 

to what you would think is right, or is it greatly underpowered?    Is an 

engine in the 60 HP range w/ a redrive gonna do the job (at max. gross)?    

Or does the MkIII REALLY need 80 HP before it can perform??



   Just curious about your opinions.                                        

Mike in SW Utah



_________________________________________________________________

Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. 

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

In regards to a MkIII.... 

what is the best engine power system you feel is the absolute best for a 

Kolb....all things considered??   =======



I doubt anyone would disagree that if you have the budget get a 912 rotax or a 914 Rotax. Its as close to plug and play for the Kolb as you can get.

If you don't or have a wild streak then you have many choices. the next best thing IMO and I have been looking is the great plains VW with the reduction drive. Its cheaper than the Rotax and has lots of power, maybe even more than you will ever need, but its always easy to de-rate an engine.

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: Re: The Perfect Engine

Mike,



The Rotax 912ULS gets my vote hands down. I have the 80hp on my kolbra but also have yet to fly it. Find out what kinda torque numbers the Suzuki has and compare that to the 912's. Someone once told me "Horsepower sells the airplane but Torque flys it" 



do not archive

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

Thanks for the feedback, Ron, but I actually have my engine (Suzuki 1.0, 

mounted and running a long time ago), and I can't afford to buy a different 

one.  However, do you think the 60 HP range is going to do the job??      

Mike

(My GlaSar took all my real serious money)   But I was seriously pondering 

the idea of putting a turbo on the GEO and boost it up to 80 HP.       

Anybody??    Anybody??



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: The Perfect Engine

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 9:52:35 -0700






In regards to a MkIII....

what is the best engine power system you feel is the absolute best for a

Kolb....all things considered??   =======



I doubt anyone would disagree that if you have the budget get a 912 rotax 

or a 914 Rotax. Its as close to plug and play for the Kolb as you can get.

If you don't or have a wild streak then you have many choices. the next 

best thing IMO and I have been looking is the great plains VW with the 

reduction drive. Its cheaper than the Rotax and has lots of power, maybe 

even more than you will ever need, but its always easy to de-rate an 

engine.






	


_________________________________________________________________

Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as 

$771/month* 

https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

Mike



The  best engine for a Kolb MKIII is a 100HP Rotax. It has proven 

reliability, it makes the MKIII perform as a Kolb was designed to fly and it 

is supported by Kolb with a installation package. If are willing to spend 

the money don't think twice buy it.



Now if you can't afford the hefty price the 80 HP rotax for a few dollars 

less would be the second best. After that we get into a real tough choice. 

There are Suzukis, VWs, BMWs Verniers and some other new engines.



The Suzuki is a bit under powered to get the full potential out of a MKIII. 

Also if you keep the in-flight adjustable prop on it, it will not be a light 

sport airplane. Add a turbo? Is that engine designed for it? Would you be 

compromising the reliability of the engine? I flew my MKIIIC with a 

underpowered engine (direct drive VW) for four years and I just wasn't 

happy. A underpowered MKIII is a airplane but it isn't a Kolb.



I would really like to hear more from the BMW guys out there. These engines 

could be the best (some what) lower cost option. The engines appear to be 

reliable and there is a redrive that is designed for the engine. There are 

also quite a few flying in Europe.



As a barging basement engine the VW can't be beat. The engine seems to have 

a life of its own even after the cars that used it have been out of 

production except in South America for what 30 years. There is continual 

after market development on the engine with new stuff being developed for it 

all the time, good stuff and cheap. Just in the last years there have been 

aluminum cases, water cooled heads, Nicisil cylinders, light weight 

starters, new reduction drives. Stay tuned. If the new redrive works as well 

as I think it does, this might be the very best price/performance engine on 

the market.



I would stay away from direct drive engines. There just aren't any on the 

market that properly fly a Kolb.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

I had a Mark III with a 582 and it was a blast, so I'd say it doesn't need 

the 80hp.

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

but the 582 ate gas very quickly. Went with a 912 this time.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

Thanks Rick, and Larry for your valuable opinions.



    This information is giving me a lot of things to think about.   Yes, I 

greatly want the MkIII to perform (like a bat out of hell......well, a slow 

bat!)  I am leaning more and more toward the turbo.

Yes, there is a turbo for the GEO engine, and I hear it performs VERY well 

with it  (GEO made a turbo version in their cars, as an option for a few 

years).  Jeron, at Raven Redrives actually has a complete bolt-on kit that 

he has put together.  ($1700)   The torque goes from   58 ftlbs (at) 3300   to  

   107ftlbs (at) 3500.  What a difference!!!!!   And at only 2lbs boost and 

this is the reason I chose GEO, this is at 2 gal/hr.   I do feel I get the 

idea that more power is better, in regard to powering the MkIII.   Thanks a 

ton for your input.    Mike in SW Utah





[quote]From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: The Perfect Engine

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:52:05 -0400




<NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>



Mike



The  best engine for a Kolb MKIII is a 100HP Rotax. It has proven 

reliability, it makes the MKIII perform as a Kolb was designed to fly and 

it is supported by Kolb with a installation package. If are willing to 

spend the money don't think twice buy it.



Now if you can't afford the hefty price the 80 HP rotax for a few dollars 

less would be the second best. After that we get into a real tough choice. 

There are Suzukis, VWs, BMWs Verniers and some other new engines.



The Suzuki is a bit under powered to get the full potential out of a MKIII. 

Also if you keep the in-flight adjustable prop on it, it will not be a 

light sport airplane. Add a turbo? Is that engine designed for it? Would 

you be compromising the reliability of the engine? I flew my MKIIIC with a 

underpowered engine (direct drive VW) for four years and I just wasn't 

happy. A underpowered MKIII is a airplane but it isn't a Kolb.



I would really like to hear more from the BMW guys out there. These engines 

could be the best (some what) lower cost option. The engines appear to be 

reliable and there is a redrive that is designed for the engine. There are 

also quite a few flying in Europe.



As a barging basement engine the VW can't be beat. The engine seems to have 

a life of its own even after the cars that used it have been out of 

production except in South America for what 30 years. There is continual 

after market development on the engine with new stuff being developed for 

it all the time, good stuff and cheap. Just in the last years there have 

been aluminum cases, water cooled heads, Nicisil cylinders, light weight 

starters, new reduction drives. Stay tuned. If the new redrive works as 

well as I think it does, this might be the very best price/performance 

engine on the market.



I would stay away from direct drive engines. There just aren't any on the 

market that properly fly a Kolb.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

kolbmark3

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Mt Clemens, MI

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

David,

  

 I had a 503 (53HP) on my Mark III and put on over  50 hours per year and had a lot of good flying. Not a screeming eagle but a very  reliable engine that was simple to take care of. I was able to take passengers  slightly over 200 lbs but it was not great.

  

 Your 60 HP will give you a lot of pleasure and it  seems to be a safe range.

  

 That said, I too would love to have a 100HP engine  but for the PRICE!!!

  

 Jim

 Mark III with a 532

    [quote][b]

_________________
Jim
Mark III
Mt. Clemens, MI

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

The Raven packages should be roughly equivalent to the 912's.   I take it

that the  Rotax 4 cycle engines are motor cycle and auto hybrids as far

as technology is concerned.. 



  Lots of Suzuki/geo metro /sidekick etc  engines out there.. 1.0, 1.3,

1.6 liters and more.. All aluminum blocks.. accumulating a good track

record...  Auto/motor cycle hybrids  too..  



  by the way.. for the 1.0 liter... three pistons with rings and wrist

pins are 70+ bucks a set...  Three oversizes.. A whole rebuild kit

falls into the 300 to 400 dollar price range..  Belted redrives are a bit

pricy... then again... 3 to 4k for a 60 to 65 hp engine ain't bad..  not

a lot  more for an 80 to 100 hp  with the 1.3 or 1.6..  one just has to

be fairly proficient technically..  Gotta be willing to do most   of the

work.. 



    Same with VW's ... anyone can build a direct drive vw engine for 1k

minus the prop hub and magneto.. and accessory case..  std 69 mm throw

crank will take you all the way to 1915 cc and 65 or 70 hp.   It just

takes some scrounging .    Teh aero vw guys appear to have a 300 %

mark up.. IMHO



   Herb 

http://www.raven-rotor.com/



do not archive  



On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:29:02 -0500 "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com> writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 but the 582 ate gas very quickly. Went with a 912 this time.

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: The Perfect Engine

Bob Bean has a Turbo 1.0 Suzuki, I think he is happy with it, maybe he          can jump in and give us his latest thoughts on this.              

         ========================

---- Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>          wrote:



=============

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Mike          Welch" <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

Thanks for the          feedback, Ron, but I actually have my engine (Suzuki 1.0,

mounted          and running a long time ago), and I can't afford to buy a different

         one. However, do you think the 60 HP range is going to do the job??

         Mike

(My GlaSar took all my real serious money) But I was seriously          pondering

the idea of putting a turbo on the GEO and boost it up to          80 HP.

Anybody?? Anybody??



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net>

 >Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

         >Subject: Re: The Perfect Engine
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Date: Mon, 16 Apr          2007 9:52:35 -0700



--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron          <captainron1(at)cox.net>



In regards to a MkIII....

 >what is the best engine power system you feel is the absolute best for a
	


 >Kolb....all things considered?? =======

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I doubt anyone would          disagree that if you have the budget get a 912 rotax

or a 914          Rotax. Its as close to plug and play for the Kolb as you can get.

         >If you don't or have a wild streak then you have many choices. the          next
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  best thing IMO and I have been looking is the great plains VW          with the

reduction drive. Its cheaper than the Rotax and has lots          of power, maybe

even more than you will ever need, but its always          easy to de-rate an

engine.






	


 _________________________________________________________________

Mortgage          rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as

         $771/month*

         https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117         http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 --

kugelair.com

            

      [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: The Perfect Engine

| Bob Bean has a Turbo 1.0 Suzuki



Ron



Ron:



I think that is Richard Swiderski who is building a Suzuki Turbo for 

his Sling Shot.



Bob B has a normally aspirated Suzuki, IIRC.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: The Perfect Engine

| what is the best engine power system you feel is the absolute best 

for a

| Kolb....all things considered??



| Mike in SW Utah

912UL or 912ULS for the mkIII, Kolbra, and Sling Shot.



My mkIII was powered with a 582 and I put a lot of hours on the 

factory mkIII's with 582.  Hauled a lot of passengers with 65 hp. 

However, the mkIII was built very light, nothing like the weight I 

carry around on my mkIII.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: The Perfect Engine

You are right John, I have not seen him round here for a while.            

            

         =============================

---- John Hauck          <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



=============

-->          Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

|          Bob Bean has a Turbo 1.0 Suzuki



Ron



Ron:



I think          that is Richard Swiderski who is building a Suzuki Turbo for

his          Sling Shot.



Bob B has a normally aspirated Suzuki, IIRC.



john               

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

            

      [quote][b]

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: The Perfect Engine

<< In regards to a MkIII.... what is the best engine power system you

feel is the absolute best for a Kolb....all things considered?? Mike >>



My vote goes to the 912 for the best-suited engine for a Mark-III.  Been

flying my Mark-3 with a 912ul (80 hp) since summer, 2005, and have been

very happy with it.  Tried a Verner (also 80 hp) before the 912, but

that didn't work out (reliability issues).



In the mid-90's, Old Kolb advertised that the 912ul (80 hp) was the

biggest engine recommended for the Mark-3, which previously was selling

with mostly 582s.  Since then, of course, lot of folks are now flying

'em with the 912S (100 hp) with excellent results.  But the 80 hp 912

still gives the airplane plenty of spunk and fun to fly.



I found a used 912 on Barnstormers (under 25 hrs) that I paid $8500 for.

These come up for sale occasionally - you can save quite a bit $ over a

new engine!  Took me a weekend to install the 912 ... a truly "plug &

play" engine for the Mark-3, no modifications or quirky installation

tricks needed.  (Didja catch that, Big Lar?!)



I've seen lots of replies suggesting the Suzuki (Geo) engines, and

indeed, these are becoming more & more common as homebuilders strive to

find cost-saving four stroke alternatives to the pricy 912 engines.

Although I have heard several favorable reports on the performance of

these engines (with the Raven redrive), a common caveat I also hear is

that the builder must be very mechanically savvy and be willing to

tinker a lot in getting the engine installed & set up properly.  As for

me, I prefer the simplicity of a plug and play engine.



The other two 4-stroke alternates that seem to be most popular on the

Mark-3 are the VW-based engines (like Great Plains - but be sure to get

one with a redrive rather than direct drive, as recommended by Rick

Neilsen), and the BMW moto engine.  I would've considered either of

these engines if I could not have found a 912 for a good price.  Good

luck in your decision process!



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III, 912ul, 65 hrs tt (40 hrs of it on the 912)

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