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jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Sigh.



When I take my foot off the gas, the car uses its current momentum to  

charge the batteries.  If I apply the brakes, they do so faster.   

Both operations, of course, exchange forward momentum for electrical  

energy, putting back into the batteries what was taken out earlier.   

I consider it completely reasonable to call this "regenerative  

braking", as the car regenerates electricity during the braking process.



This is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Prius.  When  

you slow down a conventional car, you get nothing back.  If you apply  

the brakes, you exchange your old momentum for heat -- you heat the  

brakes.  Certainly I don't get all the energy back that went into  

getting the car moving forward, but I get some back -- which is more  

than a conventional car gets.



I don't consider 47 MPG as reported by Consumer Reports a marketing  

ploy.  Last I checked, Toyota didn't own CR.  My neighbor across the  

street says, "I can get 50 consistently in the summer."  They have  

two, and the two of them compete each day to see who got the best  

milage.  She usually wins, but she's smaller so has a weight advantage.



If you don't want a Prius, don't get one.  By I don't understand why  

everyone is telling me how sour my grapes are.  I bought a $25,000  

car last night and I love it.  And 10 years from now when gas prices  

are $10 / gallon, I'll love it all the more.  Your priorities are  

different from mine?  Great.  We're not identical people, and there's  

nothing wrong with that.



But stop insulting me at how stupid I am to have my priorities the  

way they are.



-Joe



On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:03 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:



[quote] 

 <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>



 So in reality you have fallen for the marketing hype, you are not  

 using

 re-generative anything, you are using a gasoline engine to drive a

 generator to store energy. But you more efficient because you are  

 using

 the inertia of the car on the braking cycle. In reality the engine is

 just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains

 because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.

 It is all marketing crap, gasoline engines are gasoline engines no

 matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.



 Just my less than .02

 Dan Lloyd

 N289DT



 --

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

One thing I do know for certain, homo sapiens have been  around considerably longer than 10k years.  What is amazing is how few  years it took for that particular species to technologically outstrip its social  ability to wisely, for the sake of the species, use it.   

  

 Ah, hell, it was all some grand experiment, anyway.   Might as well see where it all ends up.  At the very least, I will do my  part to live ecologically conservatively, except when it comes to building and  flying airplanes!  

  

 John Jessen (in major buildus interruptus at the moment,  darn)

   #40328



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel  R.

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:18 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Maybe a little more research on both sides of the table,  short term versus long term ....

 Volcanic activity has the  ability to affect global climate on still

longer time scales. Over periods of  millions or even tens of millions of

years, increased volcanic activity can  emit enormous volumes of greenhouse

gases, with the potential of substantial  global warming (Pickering & Owen,

1994; Rampino & Volk, 1988).  However, the global cooling effects of sulphur

dioxide emissions (Officer  & Drake, 1983) will act to counter the greenhouse

warming, and the  resultant climate changes remain uncertain. Much will

depend upon the nature  of volcanic activity. Basaltic outpourings release

far less sulphur dioxide  and ash, proportionally, than do the more explosive eruptions.

  

 My  point is in all of this is that mankind has been here 10k years, and we are  just beginning to understand what is going on. 

 My  intent was that people should research and look into things, just like you  stated. Go plant the tree's, because it will help offset the thousands of acre's  being destroyed every day in third world countries for farming and cattle  production.

 Dan

  

 

   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck  Jensen

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: User Fees and  Patriotism

 

 Regarding the myth  about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than mankind has for a  gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a lot of people parrot it,  but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and completely false.  The  calculations done indicate that during the eruption phase, it discharged the  equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases.  The particle/soot content was  a little higher, but anyone interested in retaining even a shred of credibility  should refrain from perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on  wishful mythology, not fact.

  

 Now, I think I'll go  out and plant a few trees to pollute the  atmosphere--good grief!

  

 Chuck  Jensen 

Do Not  Archive. 

  

  --

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

You can have my IO-540 when you pry it from my cold dead wallet.  Of course there is always the fact that Jan is still pissed at me for asking questions he couldn't answer thereby banning me from ever buying one.  I'm still expecting you to show me what I missed out on though!



Michael

Do not archive



--

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

For those who are annoyed by the political twist of the RV list lately, check a week or so back and you will see that the list was dead and someone decided to tweak stir things up a bit. It worked!   

   

I planted thousands of trees in an earlier life in forestry, but I ran across a report recently that questions the popular wisdom as expressed by Joe below that trees are the solution to greenhouse gasses. From the Scientific American’s introduction to their article: [img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C78332.5807FB30[/img] SCIENCE NEWS April 10, 2007  More Trees, Less Global Warming, Right? -- Not Exactly  A 150-year simulation of worldwide deforestation finds that tropical forests are carbon sinks and boreal forests contribute to warming  By Nikhil Swaminathan   

   

Here’s the article: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=DCA231BA-E7F2-99DF-3105874539B83ECB&ref=rss  

   

It seems maybe Ronald Reagan was right about trees after all.  

   

As for DDT, this is an issue that the environmental community should hang their heads in shame over. Millions of deaths of the most defenseless people have occurred because “we” decided to ban the safest and most effective insecticide that could, in small quantities, kill the mosquito carriers of malaria. In the 1940’s a 50’s, dairy barns and picnics would be fogged with DDT to kill the mosquitoes. I can still remember the smell of the DDT fog in our barn when I went out on a summer evening to milk the cows.   

   

Here is an admittedly biased reference to the history of DDT: http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm  

   

And the plug-in version of the Prius is so far a $10,000 after-market option used primarily by fleets such as city governments but is apparently a coming option from Toyota. I’ll find the references if anyone really cares.  

   

OK, I’ve had my say so now we can get back to airplanes!  

   

Terry  

RV-8A finishing?  

   

   

   

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson

 Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 7:22 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism  

  

   

Yes, the earth is self-regulating, but man has tossed out the old equilibrium and is interfering with the process of finding another.    

   

    

The earth regulates carbon dioxide through plants. Toss more CO2 in the air and the plants say "yum!" and grow big and strong.  

    

   

    

Tell me, how are the rain forests in south america doing lately? How about the forests of Europe (gone for 1000 years, largely due to shipbuilding to support conquest but also for heating)? And those boundless forests of North America?  

    

   

    

No one is saying that man is causing the entire rise. Folks are saying man is contributing to the rise. And folks are concerned about it. I feel those concerns are valid.  

    

   

    

Ultimately, I don't care if the sea level rises 20 meters. I live in Minnesota, 800+ feet above sea level. And I'm sure the folks in Manhatten love the idea of looking more like Venice.  

    

   

    

I don't think anyone is saying we're going to spiral out of control and turn into Venus. But they are saying that given the current trends, the overall temperature is going to rise by "several degrees". They admit they don't know how much or if/when it will stop. But they can do a pretty good job of stating what will happen as the earth warms, starting with melting ice caps, rising sea levels and nastier storm seasons.  

    

   

    

-J  

    

         

On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:  

  



 

   

Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.  

It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment is a fallacy.   

The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...  

Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force feed America to sell products.  

Dan Lloyd  

N289DT  

       

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Joe Larson

 Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism  

Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?     

   

    

As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.  

    

   

    

I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.  

    

   

    

-J  

    

       

On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:  

  



 

   

"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.

 I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil

 theories.

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 Joe Larson wrote:

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 

 

 Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then get back to me. 

 

 Here's a quick link: 

 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak 

 

 And here's a book at Amazon: 

 

 http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 

 

 This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had. 

 

 You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion. 

 

 -J 

 

 On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote: 

 

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net) 

 

 Joseph Larson wrote: 

 

 

   

--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> (jpl(at)showpage.org) 

 

 Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? 

 

 Sorry, that's not my style.   

We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN. 

 All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more 

 such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke. 

 

 Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to 

 let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc. 

 

 do not archive 

 

 

 

   



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

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andygold(at)rkymtnhi.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

It may be an infinitesimal data point, but it is  our data point, and that of our kids, grand kids, and their grand  kids.

  

 About the Prius; is it perfect technology; of  course not.  But the bottom line is that I put 1 gallon of gas in it and it  takes me 45 miles, as compared to the average US vehicle which stops dead after  only 24 miles.  As far as what it takes to make the batteries; offset what  it takes to mine and process the oil.  Spend a day in western Colorado in  places like Grass Mesa, Battlement Mesa, the Piceance Basin, etc....  Its  not pretty.  It used to be that oil pretty much came bubbling to the  surface.  Now we've got Exxon's absurd Rube Goldberg oil shale  dreams and the industry clamoring to build 1000 miles pipelines in Northeast  Alaska just to get another few months supply.  Thats why gas costs what it  does.  And then add to that the $2 billion+ per week we're spending in Iraq  and the extra taxes and mortage interest we're all paying because of  it.  Do you think you are really filling up your RV for the bargain  price of $100.  Add up all the hidden costs and it a lot closer to  $200. Today, we are 1 Senator's health away  from attacking Iran. That will bring the cost to fill your RV to $300.   

  

 I think it was Socrates who said it best.   Just because you are not interested in politics, doesn't mean politics is not  interested in you. 

  

 Andy

  

  

  

 do not archive

  

  

  

  

  

  

 ---

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  Quote: 	
		   In reality the engine is

 just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains

 because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.


	


It's actually a bit more comlicated than that.  A piston engine doesn't have a

single BSFC, but rather a "map" of BSFCs at different operating conditions (RPM

and throttle position, mainly).  Although the piston engine in a hybrid doesn't

have any better maximum BSFC than a similar piston engine in a conventional

car, the energy storage system allows it to spend more time operating at or

near optimum BSFC.  In other words, the BSFC integrated over the duty cycle is

higher for the hybrid.



In general I don't think this discussion belongs on the RV List.  But I'm

attempting to exploit a loophole by speaking purely about the science and

engineering of heat engines, which ought to be of interest to most builders.



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

do not archive

deruiteraircraftservices(
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

The Prius is really not very economical or  environmentally friendly, I think the technology is still to new, but it has to  start somewhere.

  

 The average European diesel car will easily run 55  - 60 miles to gallon, some smaller engined examples like the Audi A2 will  stretch it over 70.

  

 Oh, and they only got a standard 12 volt battery to  save you a push start in the morning 

  

  

 If the ageing Western War Machine would be put back  in garage/hangar then we would be able to stop buying those $3.50  gallons...........

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

kenbrooks(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Melting ice caps and rising sea levels?  Maybe I'm missing something  

here, but does your ice tea glass overflow when the ice melts?



I guess I just like to stir the pot!  



Do not archive



Oh, by the way. . . would you listers please truncate your posts and  

not copy every blasted thing from other posts that you're  

referencing???  I enjoy reading what you have to say, but not what  

everyone else had to say OVER AND OVER.  Most of us know how to use  

the list -- we can make the connection.



Ken Brooks

RV-8 Finishing

Roscoe, IL

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Only overflows if the ice in  your tea sticks somewhat out into the air, and when it melts you'll have  a flood.  Otherwise one could not see the proverbial "tip" of the  iceberg!

 [quote]   --> RV-List message posted by: Kenyon Brooks    <kenbrooks(at)charter.net (kenbrooks(at)charter.net)>

Melting    ice caps and rising sea levels?  Maybe I'm missing something here,    but does your ice tea glass overflow when the ice melts? I guess I just like    to stir the pot!  

Do not  archive



[b]

andygold(at)rkymtnhi.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

If your glass is full of ice and water and you drop in another handfull of 

ice it will overflow; right?  So on a global scale, as the ocean is now full 

(at least in relation to beach front communities from Miami to Venice to 

Beijing).  The extra handfull of ice is that which is now above water making 

up the Antarctic and Greenland caps and numerous glaciers all over.



Andy





---

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  Quote: 	
		   If your glass is full of ice and water and you drop in another handfull 

of ice it will overflow; right?  So on a global scale, as the ocean is 
	


now full (at least in relation to beach front communities from Miami to 

Venice to Beijing).  The extra handfull of ice is that which is now above 

water making up the Antarctic and Greenland caps and numerous glaciers 

all over.

If you folks really believe that mankind is doing anything substantial to 

negatively impact climate, then please quit driving cars, flying 

airplanes and revert back to an agrarian/hunter lifestyle living in caves 

or huts.  Please note that Earth's climate has changed substantially over 

the millenia even when man was not a factor.



If you want to believe this non-science that is fine but keep your lack 

of knowledge of anything but your own lifetime from impacting my life.



Ron Lee



---------------------------------------------

This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.

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brandon.rigio(at)kodak.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

I don't think we are dropping in another handful.  If you have a glass

of water with the floating ice piled over the top of the glass and the

water level at the brim, as the ice melts the level in the glass wont

change.  



The ice is less dense than water so it displaces its mass in water, not

its volume, that's why it floats.  Melt every bit of ice floating in the

oceans, and most of it is floating, and we wouldn't even notice it.



My $.02



Brandon



Do not archive

--

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

True, except Greenland and Antarctica both are solid ground with ice  

over the top.  So we WILL be adding water to the oceans.



-J



On Apr 22, 2007, at 1:41 AM, Brandon Rigio wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <brandon.rigio(at)kodak.com>



 I don't think we are dropping in another handful.  If you have a glass

 of water with the floating ice piled over the top of the glass and the

 water level at the brim, as the ice melts the level in the glass wont

 change.



 The ice is less dense than water so it displaces its mass in water,  

 not

 its volume, that's why it floats.  Melt every bit of ice floating  

 in the

 oceans, and most of it is floating, and we wouldn't even notice it.



 My $.02



 Brandon



 Do not archive

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

Wow,



I go away for a week to SNF and come back to find, global warming, the war in Iraq, politics, and other societal issues on the RV list. As the second post mentioned it was bound to stir the list up a bit.



Do you think Rome and other major past civilizations knew when they were cracking at the seams and starting the long downhill slide?



Now I must go cogitate life as I find myself in substantial agreement with most of Bobs posts, someone, who I suspect, has an opposite political leaning to myself.



Bob,

Is that a recent photo? I ,for some reason, expected you to be a bit older than the photo suggests..



Do not archive

_________________
Milt

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  N395V wrote: 	
		  Is that a recent photo? I ,for some reason, expected you to be a bit older than the photo suggests..

	




Not sure if you're talking about me, Milt. Are you referring to the one on the Web version of the list? Same one I use on the RV Builder's HOtline. It's about a year old. I'm 53.



If you're not talking about how young I look, well,don't tell me.



Do not archive.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you're not talking about how young I look 	




Your photo lookslike late 30s or early 40s certainly not 53.

_________________
Milt

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  N395V wrote: 	
		  [

Your photo lookslike late 30s or early 40s certainly not 53. 	




I credit global warming and a carbon-rich diet for my youthful looks.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Perhaps its all psychosomatic. Have a look at the British documentary, "The

Great Global Warming Swindle". Junkscience.com has a link to it, or you can

go to it directly at http://tinyurl.com/296jq6 or

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4499562022478442170&q=global+warming

+swindle&hl=en



Of course the politically correct won't be interested in such heresy.



Terry




N395V wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   [

 Your photo lookslike late 30s or early 40s certainly not 53.


	




I credit global warming and a carbon-rich diet for my youthful looks.



Do not archive

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Terry Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Perhaps its all psychosomatic. Have a look at the British documentary, "The

 Great Global Warming Swindle". Junkscience.com has a link to it, or you can

 go to it directly at http://tinyurl.com/296jq6 or

 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4499562022478442170&q=global+warming

 +swindle&hl=en

 

 Of course the politically correct won't be interested in such heresy.

 

 Terry


	


Here's a summary of that UK TV show, in case you want to save an hour:



  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Mickey,



I tried to reply privately but it didn't work, here it is for everyone to

see and delete: That was an excellent reference. This is a subject so full

of people defending their point of view with various degrees of integrity

that something like the Wikipedia article really helps put things into

perspective.



 



Thanks,



 



Terry



--

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