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daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

Is there a lawyer, or someone who has had advice from a lawyer, out there, 

with a list of smart things to do as a prerequisite before selling a 

homebuilt (experimental) a/c?

I remember some discussion some years ago, but can't find it in the 

archives.

Thanks.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

PS.  Anybody like to buy a Spitfire?  Have a look in "Trade-a-Plane"

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

Dave,

call AOPA or EAA, assuming you are a member, their legal department has a list you refer to sell your aircraft.

Juan



--

BATAR(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

Do not archive

  

 I went to Sun-'n-fun 2 years ago and attended a seminar by a lawyer on this  subject.  He was a specialist in aviation law, and his bottom line was that  if you have substantial assets, the best thing to do with the plane was to  destroy it, to avoid any liability.

  

 If you did not have enough assets to make it worth someone's effort to come  after you, then it would be okay to sell it.  (Could anyone destroy a  plane?)

  

 He did not define what level of net worth would invite litigation in the  event of an accident.

  

 Al Massey



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

This matches what was presented by a speaker at Oshkosh last year.



Also, I know of a guy who "donated" his airframe to a local school after cutting the spars.  He wanted to use the engine for another project.



When I decided on a project to build, I intentionally did not account for resale value, since I do not expect to sell the plane.  



Salvage parts off it someday?  Yes.  Sell it?  No way.



Patrick

XL/Corvair

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

Keep the plane intact. Destroy any frivolous, lottery-minded  plaintiffs. Spare the lawyers... we might need them for real estate transactions  someday. Just my two cents worth.

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

secatur

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

Geez, it must be TERRIBLE to live in such a litigious country !!!

How do you ever get anything done or accomplished with the Sword Of Damocles alway hanging over your deals and transactions?

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

I have sold a few ultralights and experimentals over the past 20 years and 

have yet to be sued over any of them. Yes a few owners have dented and bent 

them after buying them and nothing has happened.



David Mikesell

23597 N. Hwy 99

Acampo, CA 95220

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "secatur" <appraise1(at)bigpond.com (appraise1(at)bigpond.com)>



Geez,  it must be TERRIBLE to live in such a litigious country !!!

How do you ever  get anything done or accomplished with the Sword Of Damocles alway hanging over  your deals and transactions?

  

 It's quite simple, actually..... we  threatened to sue the crap out of Damocles until he put the damned thing back in  its scabbard.

  

 Dred

 



   [quote][b]

norton(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there would 

like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be 

glad to take it off your hands.  As a contribution to a worthy person 

(me!),  I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would 

absolve you of any and all liability.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

I understand you are joking but you bring up part of the problem. Nobody has yet to come up with an iron clad agreement to do that.



In 2002 I had to sign the waiver from Zenith and so did my wife. But my minor son didn't and he won't be a minor any more by the time the plane is flying (knock wood). I can't sign away any claim he might make.



Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.



DO NOT ARCHIVE



 	  norton(at)optonline.net wrote: 	
		  I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there would 

like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be 

glad to take it off your hands.  As a contribution to a worthy person 

(me!),  I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would 

absolve you of any and all liability.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  I understand you are joking but you bring up part of the problem. Nobody has yet to come up with an iron clad agreement to do that.



In 2002 I had to sign the waiver from Zenith and so did my wife. But my minor son didn't and he won't be a minor any more by the time the plane is flying (knock wood). I can't sign away any claim he might make.



Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.



DO NOT ARCHIVE



 	  norton(at)optonline.net wrote: 	
		  I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there would 

like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be 

glad to take it off your hands.  As a contribution to a worthy person 

(me!),  I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would 

absolve you of any and all liability. 	
	




So you're saying even the Zenith Aircraft Company is in danger of serious litigation? What if you incorporate, build the plane in the corporations name, and have the corporation sell the plane and keep $2,500 in a corporate account. "OK, sue me, you can have $2,500. Have a nice day." They try to attach wages to the corporation you dissolve it and start a new 'airplane company'. Seems to work for the big boys. I know AOPA advocated this for joint aircraft ownership. Why not for aircraft manufacturing?

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

I'd rather spend the $2500 on a Nicaraguan hit-man to stop the litigation at it's source.  This country is starting to resemble what the rest of the world thinks of it.  A sad statement if you watch the international news at all.  

    For whatever reason, taking responsibility for one's own actions has stopped being a way of life around here.  Man up America...

ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I understand you are joking but you bring up part of the problem. Nobody has yet to come up with an iron clad agreement to do that.

 In 2002 I had to sign the waiver from Zenith and so did my wife. But my minor son didn't and he won't be a minor any more by  the time the plane is flying (knock wood). I can't sign away any claim he might make.

 Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 norton(at)optonline.net wrote:

 > I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there would 

 > like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be 

 > glad to take it off your hands.  As a contribution to a worthy person 

 > (me!),  I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would 

 > absolve you of any and all liability.

So you're saying even the Zenith Aircraft Company is in danger of serious litigation? What if you incorporate, build the plane in the corporations name, and have the corporation sell the plane and keep $2,500 in a corporate account. "OK, sue me, you can have [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

The best defense against lawsuits is to be a small target. If there  

isn't big chunks of money to be made, most lawyers won't bother with  

the case.

On May 1, 2007, at 11:17 AM, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Gig Giacona wrote:

> I understand you are joking but you bring up part of the problem.  

> Nobody has yet to come up with an iron clad ...

>

> norton(at)optonline.net wrote:

>> I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there  

>> would ...

 So you're saying even the Zenith Aircraft Company is in danger of  

 serious litigation? What if you incorporate, build the plane in the  

 corporations name, and have the corporation sell the plane and keep  

 $2,500 in a corporate account. "OK, sue me, you can have $2,500.  

 Have a nice day." They try to attach wages to the corporation you  

 dissolve it and start a new 'airplane company'. Seems to work for  

 the big boys. I know AOPA advocated this for joint aircraft  

 ownership. Why not for aircraft manufacturing?

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

Of course they are. The waiver just gives them some protection.



While the corporate idea can protect you somewhat. Corporate veils get lifted all the time. An individual that incorporates just for the protection offered from liability litigation lead the pack.



Byran has the best answer. But it basically it boils down to this. If you need to sell your experimental because you need the money. Go ahead you are too small a target to be concerned. If you don't need the money an can afford to have the cash tied up in something that you really don't want any more, don't sell it.



DO NOT ARCHIVE



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  

So you're saying even the Zenith Aircraft Company is in danger of serious litigation? What if you incorporate, build the plane in the corporations name, and have the corporation sell the plane and keep $2,500 in a corporate account. "OK, sue me, you can have $2,500. Have a nice day." They try to attach wages to the corporation you dissolve it and start a new 'airplane company'. Seems to work for the big boys. I know AOPA advocated this for joint aircraft ownership. Why not for aircraft manufacturing?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

---- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.


	


Gig is absolutely correct here. The wild card is the definition of negligence as defined by a judge and/or jury. The working concept is that nobody can ever agree to negligent treatment under any circumstances. So, if the court finds the seller negligent (and that can be done totally detached from reality) the signature on the hold harmless agreement means exactly nothing. He's also right that it is a shame that it works that way.



Dred



DO NOT ARCHIVE

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

[quote="admin(at)arachnidrobotics"]I'd rather spend the $2500 on a Nicaraguan hit-man to stop the litigation at it's source.  This country is starting to resemble what the rest of the world thinks of it.  A sad statement if you watch the international news at all.  

    For whatever reason, taking responsibility for one's own actions has stopped being a way of life around here.  Man up America...

ashontz <ashontz> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I understand you are joking but you bring up part of the problem. Nobody has yet to come up with an iron clad agreement to do that.

 In 2002 I had to sign the waiver from Zenith and so did my wife. But my minor son didn't and he won't be a minor any more by  the time the plane is flying (knock wood). I can't sign away any claim he might make.

 Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 norton(at)optonline.net wrote:

 > I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL.  If anyone out there would 

 > like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be 

 > glad to take it off your hands.  As a contribution to a worthy person 

 > (me!),  I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would 

 > absolve you of any and all liability.

So you're saying even the Zenith Aircraft Company is in danger of serious litigation? What if you incorporate, build the plane in the corporations name, and have the corporation sell the plane and keep $2,500 in a corporate account. "OK, sue me, you can have  	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	

I totally agree, this country is effed up. Mayeb the real estate collapse and petro dollar collapse/trade deficit blowup ushering in hyperinflation in this country and ensuing Great Depression 2 will eventually solve things once it all pans out.

baileys(at)ktis.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

How about having the buyer sign a contract to the  affect that they understand the it is not an aircraft, but is intended  as an educational aeronautical device for display  purposes only, never intended for flight. Any attempts to fly  the device will almost certainly fail.  That they will further  agree to never actually fly the device and if they do violate the terms of the  agreement that you will be held blameless by  them or their heirs or any  insuing parties that may eventually come into possesion of said educational  device?? <big grin>

 Bob B.

    [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

[quote="baileys(at)ktis.net"]How about having the buyer sign a contract to the  affect that they understand the it is not an aircraft, but is intended  as an educational aeronautical device for display  purposes only, never intended for flight. Any attempts to fly  the device will almost certainly fail.  That they will further  agree to never actually fly the device and if they do violate the terms of the  agreement that you will be held blameless by  them or their heirs or any  insuing parties that may eventually come into possesion of said educational  device?? <big>

 Bob B.

     	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




I like that one



do not archive

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c

At 07:42 AM 5/1/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they 

should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.


	


Personally, I liked the idea in one of Robert Heinlein's books where 

he talks about "the day we hung all the lawyers."  That said, I think 

our country would be a lot better place if we limited the number of 

lawyers that were given licenses to about 1/10 the number we now 

have.  There are so many of them looking for an easy buck that nobody 

is safe from nuisance law suits.



Still, if you really must sell your plane, I think the best way to 

protect yourself is to make sure the buyer acknowledges that the 

plane is "'Experimental" and was built by an "Amateur" with no 

qualifications at all to perform the task in a safe manner.  The 

buyer realizes the plane may kill him and assumes he knows better 

than the seller that he is taking a risk he wants.  This may not do 

any good in court, but it might stop a reasonable heir or victim from 

suing for damages should the plane turn into a statistic.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c

 	  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: 	
		  At 07:42 AM 5/1/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Liability releases almost never stand up in court. It sucks and they 

should but until we get the ABA out of Washington they won't.



	


Personally, I liked the idea in one of Robert Heinlein's books where 

he talks about "the day we hung all the lawyers." 	




This is a wonderful idea. Damn parasites.



do not archive

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