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601 Crash
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

If  there is a 601 builder close the FAA and the NTSB will usually permit a third party to view the wreckage,and possibly photograph the key joints. I did try to get the FAA to give me some feedback on the Nicolas Ca 801 crash and he couldn't release any details. He did suggest I visit the wrecking yard that had possession of the debris. Several of us 801 builders were gonna pitch in and buy the pieces  for the recovery and storage fee but the next of kin didn't want to sell. I also agree with Kevin, we builders need a way to do our own autposy of the wreckage. With that said I have full faith in Zenith Aircraft and their designs. Godspeed to the pilot and I feel very sad for the family. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net>



Yeah, this is getting scary. We really need a better system for keeping up

with accidents. We really need to lobby these FAA investigators to take

photos of critical components in these accidents and allow them to be

viewed. We need to know if the bolts were in tact etc. How can we get this

done? I may go talk to my local office tomorrow to see what I can find out.

We need more info. Even the final FAA reports, are not very concise.



Kevin Bonds



Nashville TN

601XL Plans building.

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds



 



do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE 



 

--

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

I'm trying to figure out where the Walker name comes in. The FAA registration data doesn't show it.



http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=10028

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

In a message dated 5/10/2007 1:49:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  johnd(at)data-tech.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  It was a    601, no drugs, newly purchased plane, . Report at http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00209&key=1



	


 

 Now I know my memory can act funny some time,but I do not think this is the  one I remember. I'm thinking

 this plane was at a good altitude,big debris field,parts landing in  agricultural fields(?),and canabis in the pilots or passengers blood,recently  purchased. Was it an 801 with the extended horz stab ?

    'cmon, somebody tell me I did'nt hallucinate this.

  do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

In a message dated 5/10/2007 2:28:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  bill_dom(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The    accident where drugs where found in the pilot was another inflight breakup in    an 801. The other inflight breakup happen to another 601XL in Yuba city    California. The first case was a 601XL where the wing folded up and crash,    also in California. 

	


 

 O.K..   Glad I'm building a 701.   Has anything like  this ever happened to a 701 ? I mean besides that guy in Wisconsin who keeps  hitting trees ; )   Sorry, please do not be offended, ,just a weird  sense of humor.

 I actually respect your determination to get right back on the horse.  

 do not archive

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

revdjd

Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

I would be very surprised if Zenith Aircraft comes forward to address this most recent crash of a 601XL even after the FAA does its investigation and issues a report. The reason.............liability and lawsuits. IF the cause of this most recent crash of a 601XL, and all the others, is a wing-related/structural defect do you think that ZAC is going to admit that unless forced to do so?

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

All-

     There are so many variables in  this accident, let's wait until things are sorted out by the NTSB  before speculating root cause.    

     Kick back and relax as best you  can.

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville,  Pa

   [quote][b]

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

I’m not in the mood to kick back on this one. The problem is that the NTSB never seems to answer any questions for me. I was patient during the other investigations, and even found ways to explain them away. This crash may be explainable as well, but I’m getting a little annoyed at this whole system of sit back and wait. There seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when it comes to these investigations. We need to organize a builder’s advocacy group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, to see that we get accurate info such as pictures of attachment points etc. If there was a problem how would we get reliable information to fix it in this climate?   

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Plans building.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

    

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk

 Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:23 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: 601 Crash  

  

     

All-  

    

    There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until things are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause.      

    

    Kick back and relax as best you can.  

    

Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuse/Corvair

 Townville, Pa  

   	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

 	  Kevin Bonds wrote: 	
		  There seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when it comes to these investigations. We need to organize a builderâ€™s advocacy group to approach the NTSB or FAA 	




Is this something that the National EAA can help with...?



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

JerryHey

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

To be sure, Zenith should conduct an in depth investigation of every crash involving their aircraft and they should make the results known.  If anything in the design is unsafe and they say nothing, then they are liable legally and ethically.   Jerry

On May 10, 2007, at 7:30 PM, kevinbonds wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I’m not in the mood to kick back on this one. The problem is that the NTSB never seems to answer any questions for me. I was patient during the other investigations, and even found ways to explain them away. This crash may be explainable as well, but I’m getting a little annoyed at this whole system of sit back and wait. There seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when it comes to these investigations. We need to organize a builder’s advocacy group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, to see that we get accurate info such as pictures of attachment points etc. If there was a problem how would we get reliable information to fix it in this climate?

 

Kevin Bonds

Nashville TN

601XL Plans building.

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

 

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

 



 



From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill NaumukSent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:23 PMTo: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: 601 Crash



 

All-



    There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until things are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause.    



    Kick back and relax as best you can.



Bill NaumukHDS Fuse/CorvairTownville, Pa

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marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

Kevin,

 I agree with your concern about a lack of information. The FAA and/or NTSB must give out better data concerning the cause of such accidents. With several decades of experience in the aviation field, I suspect they will not unless a good number of people demand better action (unless of course it is a well known person). 

 In any case, this sounds like a weather related crash involving a low time, inexperienced pilot who may have flown into conditions that he could not overcome. I will wait for the final report. 



-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments.   [quote][b]

msherman95632(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

Kevin.

  

 I think that would be called the EAA.

  

 do not archive

  

 Mark S.

 



 

 ---

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

In each case, I believe the defect is found in the person(s) that 

prepared the plane for flight or the pilot that exceeded his

ability in impossible conditions.  The defect is between the ears and so 

far, I've heard nothing to indicate anything to the

contrary.  Excess speed, missing bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or 

what have you. These all play the major role in keeping

the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking somewhat, they're going 

to continue to loose wings and things with regularity.

The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural limits of 

the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed commercial

aircraft load limits.



Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



revdjd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would be very surprised if Zenith Aircraft comes forward to address this most recent crash of a 601XL even after the FAA does its investigation and issues a report. The reason.............liability and lawsuits. IF the cause of this most recent crash of a 601XL, and all the others, is a wing-related/structural defect do you think that ZAC is going to admit that unless forced to do so?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112128#112128

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

I agree 100% there used to be checks and balances in place to help save  people from themselves in aviation like taking away ones medical if they  shouldn't fly. But now we have a lot of our seniors that simply shouldn't  be flying that are jumping up and down because of the new Sport pilot  class. I am at odds right now with a similar situation with a plane I helped  build and now I am not sure if the person should be flying it. When they take  the plane out for a taxi test for the first time and try and lift off in a plane  they are unfamiliar with it scares the hell out of me. Now I am afraid for him  but I can't stop him so I have to just watch and pry I guess. I just think this  is going to be happening more and more. I know it's hard to admit it but some  people are just not fit to fly but will do it anyway. And this has nothing to do  with the current crash it is simply a blanket statement.

 I also am starting to wonder if this new class was a good idea at  all.

 Jeff

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  In each case, I    believe the defect is found in the person(s) that 

prepared the plane for    flight or the pilot that exceeded his

Ability in impossible    conditions.  The defect is between the ears and so 

far, I've heard    nothing to indicate anything to the

contrary.  Excess speed, missing    bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or 

what have you. These all play the    major role in keeping

the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking    somewhat, they're going 

to continue to loose wings and things with    regularity.

The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural    limits of 

the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed    commercial

aircraft load limits.

	
 

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

Hey Jeff,

 Lighten up freind it has been well proven that stupidity and lack of  personal responsibility does not need a license.

 And out here in the middle of nowhereville there are plenty of older pilots  continuing to fly after losing there medical.

  

 Hell, I would rather spin in than drinking myself to death while my wife  tried to nag me to death because I forgot to take out the trash 2 weeks  ago.



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

I wish to argue the other side of the old geezer sport pilot privileges.



 There are lots of older pilots who can't get a medical because of the bureaucratic stubbornness of the FAA.  The ones who are really likely to keel over or pass out from their medical condition will lose their state driver's license and not be able to fly even with the new rules.



 The older pilots who have a lot of experience and higher level pilot certificates have many things going for them.  They have lived to old age while flying airplanes.  That means they have developed some good judgement or they are very lucky.  In either case, these are not the pilots I would expect to hear about who killed themselves by flying drunk or in filthy weather.  Those are the kind of accidents that seem to happen to low time pilots with poor judgement or just plain bad luck.



 Apparently the pilot who lost his life in the recent XL accident was a "New" sport pilot.  It seems he fell victim to the poor weather.  If not for the fact that this is one of many recent examples of structural failures on XLs it would be an accident not worthy of much attention by the flying community.  We would write this one off as a pilot who chose to fly under conditions he wasn't qualified for.  Those are the breaks with new pilots.  



 It is unfortunate that ownership of a plane gives the pilot more freedom to fly in horrible conditions than he would have if he rented his plane from an FBO.  I feel this is just one example of the extra risk we all take by flying home built airplanes.  This doesn't apply to Heintz designs as much as it does to the faster and higher performance ones, but it still applies to some degree.  Just because you can build a plane doesn't mean you have the pilot skills to safely fly it.



 In any event, I applaud the new rule that lets older pilots like me fly again without fighting with the bureaucrats for a "Special Issuance" medical certificate.  The FAA has always claimed that 98 percent of the pilots requesting special issuance medicals eventually get them.  Now they don't need them if they are willing to limit their activities to LSA and VFR Day operations.  That seems like a good compromise to me.



 For the most part, I feel flying a plane is actually easier than driving a car.  Airplanes spend most of their flying time a long distance from the nearest solid object.  Cars zoom around right next to each other.  Flying is still a lot safer than driving a car.  Especially for those flyers who have a lot of experience, if they can safely drive a car they should be able to safely fly a plane.



 

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 At 09:41 PM 5/10/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]I agree 100% there used to be checks and balances in place to help save people from themselves in aviation like taking away ones medical if they shouldn't fly. But now we have a lot of our seniors that simply shouldn't be flying that are jumping up and down because of the new Sport pilot class. I am at odds right now with a similar situation with a plane I helped build and now I am not sure if the person should be flying it. When they take the plane out for a taxi test for the first time and try and lift off in a plane they are unfamiliar with it scares the hell out of me. Now I am afraid for him but I can't stop him so I have to just watch and pry I guess. I just think this is going to be happening more and more. I know it's hard to admit it but some people are just not fit to fly but will do it anyway. And this has nothing to do with the current crash it is simply a blanket statement.

 I also am starting to wonder if this new class was a good idea at all.

 Jeff

  

  

   In each case, I believe the defect is found in the person(s) that 

  prepared the plane for flight or the pilot that exceeded his

  Ability in impossible conditions.  The defect is between the ears and so 

  far, I've heard nothing to indicate anything to the

  contrary.  Excess speed, missing bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or 

  what have you. These all play the major role in keeping

  the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking somewhat, they're going 

  to continue to loose wings and things with regularity.

  The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural limits of 

  the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed commercial

  aircraft load limits.

 

   



 



  See what's free at AOL.com. 



 [b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

I don't wish to be saved from myself by you  or any other self appointed judge of my skills and abilities. That goes double  for any group of bureaucrats or politicians.  I prefer to rely on my own  judgment and will gladly bear the consequences of my  decisions.

  

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 do not archive

 [quote]   --

vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Asolutely spot on,  Raymond!

 That should be archived in  bold print......

  

 Tailwinds  always,

 JG

 [quote]   ---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Then lets stop blaming the 601 for bad judgment and except the consequences  of others decisions.

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     I don't wish to be saved from myself by    you or any other self appointed judge of my skills and abilities. That goes    double for any group of bureaucrats or politicians.  I prefer to rely on    my own judgment and will gladly bear the consequences of my    decisions.

	


 

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

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