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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Thank you for clarifying that. I was actually just reading that report.



[quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]Gary,

  

  This is where all the comments about wing flutter might comes from:

  

  "As the airplane flew to the southwest, he saw the wings  visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal  separate from the airplane."  

  This comes from the NTSB report about the accident in Oakdale  California. Apparently, the guy who was flying over the plant is not  the only one who have experienced wing flutter. 

  

  William Dominguez

  Zodiac 601XL Plans

  Miami, Florida

  

Gary Boothe <gboothe5> wrote:[quote]  --> Zenith-List  message posted by: "Gary Boothe" 



Andy,



There you go, again...



Wing flutter? ONE lister reported wing flutter in a very peculiar

circumstance! That hardly means that wing flutter is a problem, but the more

you bring it up, all of a sudden wings are fluttering off of 601's

everywhere.



To my knowledge, no one ever agreed what caused the wing flutter of the guy

who reported it while flying over a heat plume. It was certainly not agreed

that it was a structural problem with the wing.



You don't work for the RV guys, do you?



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section





Me too til I starting taking notice of the thread about wing flutter.

There's still plenty of other fun and interesting thread on here.



do not archive



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL -  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2 mile away and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site, stated that he was outside on his break when his attention was drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was flying overhead towards Oakdale airport. The airplane was about 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it were being "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwest, he saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the" fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and folded back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact. The witness further reported that the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back during the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground.



Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the accident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter the traffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle." The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a nose down 60-degree spin to the right. The airplane completed one full revolution before the right wing collapsed upward and folded back. The airplane then struck the ground.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Gig, I guess that falls into the Non-Experimental Experimental camp. It was just a suggestion. What are you afraid of, that someone may actually go ahead and implement it? Why would you have a problem with that if the plane is in fact experimental and it's their plane. Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that someone is implying that there MAY be, not definite, but MAY be something wrong with the design? If and there was something wrong with the design wouldn't you want to know about it? I chose Zenith based on NTSB queries a few years back. Nothing showed up at the time that didn't suggest pilot error. Now for some reason we're seeing cases that may in fact imply problems with the airframe. Seeing as how the 601HD and HDS utilize that same building processes and are built and flow by the same types of people, I'd have to guess that statiscally the the workmanship on the 601HD and HDSs and 601XLs are all within the same bellcurve, yet there are at least 4 suspicious 601XL accidents involving airframe failure where as with the 601HD and HDSs there are none of that category. Again, these planes are placarded Experimental. Personally, I'd prefer to see them placarded Certified, meaning, the design is certified and the inspector overlooking my work felt my work was up to snuff to be considered professional, so that the combination of heavily tested design coupled with professional workmanship is Certified which would be the same as building a Cessna 152 from scratch per A&P workmanship. That would be nice, but that's not the real world. So the best I can hope for at a reasonable price is Experimental with a truly tested design. That's all.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  Andy,



I've pretty much stayed out of this. It is your airplane and as long as you can get it by the AW inspector you can do what ever the hell you want to it. 



What I have a problem with is you suggesting completely untested and un-engineered fixes to a problem that probably doesn't exist.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

When I read that part I assumed prop failure (benefit of the doubt) that shook the plane apart, yet the report doesn't mention that. The report also states as probably cause "Failure of wing structure due to unknown causes".



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2 mile away and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site, stated that he was outside on his break when his attention was drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was flying overhead towards Oakdale airport. The airplane was about 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it were being "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwest, he saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the" fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and folded back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact. The witness further reported that the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back during the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground.



Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the accident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter the traffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle." The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a nose down 60-degree spin to the right. The airplane completed one full revolution before the right wing collapsed upward and folded back. The airplane then struck the ground.

JerryHey

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy, I have been following every word of this discussion.  I  

appreciate your willingness to explore the information we have and  

search for answers.     It is hard to understand those who apparently  

would rather not know.     Jerry





On May 17, 2007, at 4:13 PM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When I read that part I assumed prop failure (benefit of the doubt)  

 that shook the plane apart, yet the report doesn't mention that.  

 The report also states as probably cause "Failure of wing structure  

 due to unknown causes".

 Gig Giacona wrote:

> If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2  

> mile away and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly.

>> One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site,  

>> stated that he was outside on his break when his attention was  

>> drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was  

>> flying overhead towards Oakdale airport. The airplane was about  

>> 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he  

>> heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it were being  

>> "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwest, he  

>> saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were  

>> pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated  

>> that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume  

>> before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the"  

>> fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane  

>> entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and  

>> folded back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane  

>> impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact.  

>> The witness further reported!

   that the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back  

 during the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any  

 components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground.

>>

>> Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the  

>> accident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter  

>> the traffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were  

>> alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle."  

>> The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a  

>> nose down 60-degree spin to the right. The airplane completed one  

>> full revolution before the right wing collapsed upward and folded  

>> back. The airplane then struck the ground.

>

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113431#113431

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,

Pal, you need to get a life!  Why do you feel that you MUST rebut every reply to your "intellectual" posts?  And why must you be so adversarial?  

I, for one, have had it with your attitude. You have lost totally my ear. "Ashontz" now means "Delete."  Sorry.  

Jay in Dallas

"ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Gig, I guess that falls into the Non-Experimental Experimental camp. It was just a suggestion. What are you afraid of, that someone may actually go ahead and implement it? Why would you have a problem with that if the plane is in fact experimental and it's their plane. Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that someone is implying that there MAY be, not definite, but MAY be something wrong with the design? If and there was something wrong with the design wouldn't you want to know about it? I chose Zenith based on NTSB queries a few years back. Nothing showed up at the time that didn't suggest pilot error. Now for some reason we're seeing cases that may in fact imply problems with the airframe. Seeing as how the 601HD and HDS utilize that same building processes and are built and flow by the same types of people, I'd have to guess that statiscally the the workmanship on the 601HD and HDSs and 601XLs are all within the same bellcurve, yet there are at least 4 suspicious 601XL!

  accidents involving airframe failure where as with the 601HD and HDSs there are none of that category. Again, these planes are placarded Experimental. Personally, I'd prefer to see them placarded Certified, meaning, the design is certified and the inspector overlooking my work felt my work was up to snuff to be considered professional, so that the combination of heavily tested design coupled with professional workmanship is Certified which would be the same as building a Cessna 152 from scratch per A&P workmanship. That would be nice, but that's not the real world. So the best I can hope for at a reasonable price is Experimental with a truly tested design. That's all.

Gig Giacona wrote:

> Andy,

> 

> I've pretty much stayed out of this. It is your airplane and as long as you can get it by the AW inspector you can do what ever the hell you want to it. 

> 

> What I have a problem with is you suggesting completely untested and un-engineered fixes to a problem that probably doesn't exist.

--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113430#113430

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Thanks. I'm not trying to be a hardass. Sport plane building and certification and all that are plagued enough as it is and I'm definitely not interested in rocking any boats. I hate the way lawyers et all have totally destroyed GA, plus now we have she-ite like User Fees and what not breathing down our necks. That last thing I want is more of the same BS. I'm more than willing to take responsibility for my own actions, I just want to know I'm working with a truly sound base, and if not, then just correct it so we can all move on. It would be nice if even this discussion can be kept to the Zenith flying community as just a heads up and that's all. It should be treated as a warning in the sense that "hey you better not drink a fifth a day or you might get cirrohsis" and then let the individual decide. That's all.

 	  JerryHey wrote: 	
		  Andy, I have been following every word of this discussion.  I  

appreciate your willingness to explore the information we have and  

search for answers.     It is hard to understand those who apparently  

would rather not know.     Jerry

On May 17, 2007, at 4:13 PM, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 When I read that part I assumed prop failure (benefit of the doubt)  

 that shook the plane apart, yet the report doesn't mention that.  

 The report also states as probably cause "Failure of wing structure  

 due to unknown causes".

 Gig Giacona wrote:

> If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2  

> mile away and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly.

>> One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site,  

>> stated that he was outside on his break when his attention was  

>> drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was  

>> flying overhead towards Oakdale airport. The airplane was about  

>> 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he  

>> heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it were being  

>> "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwest, he  

>> saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were  

>> pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated  

>> that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume  

>> before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the"  

>> fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane  

>> entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and  

>> folded back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane  

>> impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact.  

>> The witness further reported!

   that the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back  

 during the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any  

 components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground.

>>

>> Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the  

>> accident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter  

>> the traffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were  

>> alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle."  

>> The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a  

>> nose down 60-degree spin to the right. The airplane completed one  

>> full revolution before the right wing collapsed upward and folded  

>> back. The airplane then struck the ground.

>

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113431#113431

slook(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I'll get concerned when Chris tells his family members to stop flying 

the demo 601XL. Until then, I'm going to continue building...



Steve

Steve Look

Monticello, IL

601XL, Corvair

"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

ashontz,



this is getting reallll oldd.    I have a suggestion.  Sell your plane and get a certified aircraft.   



these passive agreesive solilloquies are killing this site.  move on man! get over it, lets build planes PLease!



Juan



--

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

You mean that 601XL with 1200 hours on it, that most of us have had our butts into?  

   

Mark   

   

Oh and CATS are only good for Chinese food.   

I keep looking at my two, and the wife keeps saying no! Maybe I'll throw one in the cage with the Ferrets and see who wins.  

   

Do not archive  

--

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Point well taken Gig, specially because the witness seems to change the story slightly.

  

  William Dominguez

  Zodiac 601 XL

  Miami, Florida

  

Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:[quote]  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



If  you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2 mile away  and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly. 

 	  Quote: 	
		    One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site, stated  that he was outside on his break when his attention was drawn toward  the direction of the accident airplane that was flying overhead towards  Oakdale airport. The airplane was about 800 to 1,000 feet above ground  level (agl). He stated that he  heard a "very loud" engine and it  sounded as if it were being "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane  flew to the southwest, he saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed  what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The  witness stated that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and  volume before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the"  fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane  entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and folded  back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane impacted the  ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact. The witness  further reported t!

 hat the wings remained attached to the  airplane, but folded back during the accident sequence. He added that  he did not see any components separate from the airplane prior to  impacting the ground.
	


[quote] 

 Additional witnesses from  various locations surrounding the accident site [quote][b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,



I noticed you mentioned you only drilled one side of the center spar.  I set the dihedral of both wing spars and the center spar before I began the wing assembly.  Did I make a mistake here?  Should I have waited to drill one end till later?  Why?

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

If you’re a plans builder then you would need to install both spars in

the center spar, run a string and do the math to ensure that both spars

are equally set and proper. Their may be other ways but I can't think of

one that would guarantee accuracy for the plans builder. Then you are

safe to move on and make each wing, knowing that your center spar is

correct and ready for installation into the fuselage.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

--

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I don't know if you made a mistake or not but, when you get the wing kit from Zenith it comes with the center spar and all holes are drilled at the factory and the left, right and center spar are a matched set.

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  



I noticed you mentioned you only drilled one side of the center spar.  I set the dihedral of both wing spars and the center spar before I began the wing assembly.  Did I make a mistake here?  Should I have waited to drill one end till later?  Why?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

No, it falls into the don't experiment and advise others to experiment on stuff I don't know enough about camp. As I said it is your airplane and if you can get the change, what ever it may be, past the AW inspector go for it. Just don't suggest to others to use your untested ideas. If you use them and then test them and they work THEN share them. 

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Gig, I guess that falls into the Non-Experimental Experimental camp. It was just a suggestion. What are you afraid of, that someone may actually go ahead and implement it? Why would you have a problem with that if the plane is in fact experimental and it's their plane. Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that someone is implying that there MAY be, not definite, but MAY be something wrong with the design? If and there was something wrong with the design wouldn't you want to know about it? I chose Zenith based on NTSB queries a few years back. Nothing showed up at the time that didn't suggest pilot error. Now for some reason we're seeing cases that may in fact imply problems with the airframe. Seeing as how the 601HD and HDS utilize that same building processes and are built and flow by the same types of people, I'd have to guess that statiscally the the workmanship on the 601HD and HDSs and 601XLs are all within the same bellcurve, yet there are at least 4 suspicious 601XL accidents involving airframe failure where as with the 601HD and HDSs there are none of that category. Again, these planes are placarded Experimental. Personally, I'd prefer to see them placarded Certified, meaning, the design is certified and the inspector overlooking my work felt my work was up to snuff to be considered professional, so that the combination of heavily tested design coupled with professional workmanship is Certified which would be the same as building a Cessna 152 from scratch per A&P workmanship. That would be nice, but that's not the real world. So the best I can hope for at a reasonable price is Experimental with a truly tested design. That's all.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  Andy,



I've pretty much stayed out of this. It is your airplane and as long as you can get it by the AW inspector you can do what ever the hell you want to it. 



What I have a problem with is you suggesting completely untested and un-engineered fixes to a problem that probably doesn't exist.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Gig, that is the luxury of building a plane from a kit, it is also the

terror of building a plane from plans. A plans builder does not have the

factory jigs to do the spars, they have to be done as a match drilled

affair with fishing line and plumb bobs. Yikes!!



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 



--

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy- consider me +1,+100 don't listen to the guys that tell you to shut it. Keep asking questions- that's how we all learn. I too feel there may well be something worth looking into with this design. As far as this thread not being warm and fuzzy, I think it's just starting to get good. I don't feel anyone should ever blindly follow what another person says- be it an aircraft designer or even your wife. For you guys that think this forum used to be good- have you noticed how this forum has changed as ZAC has become more "mainstream"? The bigger the company becomes, the more the builders get to be like RV guys

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Never Mind

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Gentlemen;

   

  I promised not to keep at this stream but please remember this: The very best design teams in history have a checkered history of successfully providing designs that did not have hidden susceptibilities, including structural flutter issues, that showed up after many, many were in service with clean histories.



  I agree that Andy tends to run to the reactionary side but nothing he has asked is not contained anecdotally in my own career in aircraft development and testing for the "big boys".

   

  CH is a man revered by myself as well as most of you. He is not God. He would never place a flawed design in the hands of his buyers or especially as someone put it "his own children" flying them.

  I also don't think Andy is going to go out and redesign the wings withthe knowlege he has - he knows that is simply moving the percieved flaw.

  

steveadams  <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" 



The problem is Andy is not asking questions. He's making assumptions and offering solutions without any knowledge of what he is doing. Has anyone asked Zenith for some engineering data? Calculations for 2 dimensional flutter analysis are pretty straight forward, and for predicting wing flutter in the speed range the 601 flies, is extremely accurate. Now, since CH worked doing flutter analysis for the Concorde, do you think maybe, he could have run the calculations on the 601xl? Naw, we don't need to find out, lets just go with Andy on this one and assume the wing has a potential to flutter. And since we make that assumption, now lets fix it by stiffining up the wing, cause Andy says wings flutter because they are too flexible. Are we       Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 

[url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow]Play Monopoly Here and Now[/url] (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [quote][b]

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Not to pick nits here, but the testimony doesn't seem to make sense. If the  left wing collapsed and folded rearward, it no longer provided lift. Therefore,  the aircraft should have spun to the left. No amount of right rudder could  compensate for that loss of lift. There should have been strong turning moment  until the right wing gave up. The witness states that the wings remained  attached, but folded back. Therefore, the report should discuss either a  fracture somewhere in the structure, or a humongous (that's a technical term)  folding or bending, all at a specifically identifiable point.   If one  witness stated he saw what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the  plane, then SOMEBODY should have walked the area to either find the pieces or  negate the testimony. You don't just ignore a possible debris field.  With  the reports of hearing the engine being revved, I wonder if anyone looked at the  powerplane for fuel restrictions, ignition problem, something that night have  demanded higher rpm.  It just seems to me that not everything has been  examined and/or analyzed.

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]   ---

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