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Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

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darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I am figureing out my panel and was wondering what everyone has done when it comes to breakers and breaker switches?  I am thinking about using straight breakers on the avionics with them being tied to the avionics master and then using breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs, strobes, heater, etc.  What have you guys done?



Darin Hawkes

Series 7 (in progress)

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

It was once stated many years ago here that if a breaker/fuse trips you most 

likely have a serious problem and it will not reset anyway.  In the interest 

of cost, I installed the more robust automotive blade type fuses.  To date, 

I've never had one blow (about 8 years).



Don Smythe

---

andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I'm doing as Don did.  He failed to mention that it is a bunch less

expensive this way also.



Andy Fultz

--

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Darin,

That is about as complicated a question as the gross weight thing....

There is a thought ,(not agreed by all) that the breakers are a distraction

and should be installed not in an accessible place in flight. 

NASA and many others have studied this ... so my suggestion is to install 2

automotive breaker boxes under the dash. One is the main system, lights,

master, avionics, ect. The other is the actual avionics breaker box. This

box is controlled by the avionics sw and a 30 amp or so relay to liven up

the avionics. One master breaker button to protect the whole thing. That

breaker is thrown when the over voltage protector is livened up. A simple

system works great and easy to deal with if something goes awry. This is the

way I wired my system and you can look it over to see if you like the idea. 

Gee, I also have lipo battery packs for backup.

John Oakley



--

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Don,

I am glad to see you still on the list; I have a lot of respect for you and

your experience. 

John Oakley



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Darin,



I put in the Potter and Brumfield Push Pull circuit breakers.  I liked the 

simplicity of checking systems during annuals, but really not much of a 

benefit over what Don suggests.  I have never pulled one in flight, but did 

have one accidentally pull once as I was removing something from the 

passenger seat.  I think it was my camera with the strap that hooked the 

knob and pulled it.  It was the power to my video camera set-up and caused a 

moments consternation as I tried to determine - on the ground - why my 

camera suddenly stopped working.  This project has been a work in progress 

for about five years and occasionally it will hiccup with lots of time spend 

debugging it.



Lowell



---

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Darin,

  Sometimes it's good to see others that are scratching their heads building as I am. I too had many questions as to the best way to wirre the panel so I went to one of Bob Nuckols seminars. This is his web address  http://www.aeroelectric.com/

   

  Look over his  web site and think strongly about purchasing his book as it has many wiring schematics that are simply done. If you are hooking up a Rotax 912s it has that covered. You have already received good advice from those on this list...Bob is an advocate of not using breakers for good reasons. The book Aeroelectric Connection covers these philosophies well.

  Happy Wiring,

  Dan Billingsley

  Mesa / KF-IV 912s / N314DW /  Building



darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I've been reading the mail on this one.  And  It is obvious that the type of circuit protection is a personal  convenience.  For example I fly floats in remote locations.  Circuit  breakers are a nice convenience, should I ever experience a short circuit the  popped breaker will make it much easier to locate.  Automotive blade type  fuses would provide an equal level of protection without the ability to easily  unload circuits selectively in flight. My plane has a whopping great five  circuits drawing a total of about 10 Amps peak current.  Carrying a  reasonable supply of spares is also a good idea.  Circuit protection is  sort of like an insurance policy....  I'm betting I'll need it and the  electronic component manufacturers are betting I won't.



The important  thing to me is not so much what protection you use but where you install  it.  My advice on that item is to install your protection as close to your  busses as possible.  Several certified aircraft actually install the  breakers directly on the busses.  That gives the most protection for  everything down stream of the buss.  Therefore it is also important to  install some protection for the busses them selves too.  A good healthy  fusible link right on the positive terminal of the battery ( not the starter  circuit ) will protect all the busses that line feeds.  You will also want  to install some current protection between your alternator and your battery or  main buss.



The last item is neatness.  You will have to look at the  set up of your electrical system for many hours of enjoyable flight so you  should make the installation so it looks neat.  Remember if you use the  blade fuses to give enough room to easily extract and replace fuses.  Auto  resetting relays(breakers) like used on automotive headlights should be reserved  for that application and with the exception of the Dukes of Hazzard be kept out  of the air..



  

[img]cid:946294623(at)21052007-2DFD[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   -----Original  Message-----

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of darinh

 Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 5:11 PM

 To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Straight Breakers vs.  Breaker Switch?

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by:  "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>



 I am figureing out my  panel and was wondering what everyone

 has done when it comes to breakers  and breaker switches?  I

 am thinking about using straight breakers  on the avionics

 with them being tied to the avionics master and then  using

 breaker switches on things like landing lights, navs,

  strobes, heater, etc.  What have you guys done?



 Darin  Hawkes

 Series 7 (in progress)





  Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114026#114026



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Dan,  

Good advise on using Bob Nuckolls book and information. You may not remember,   

he was once was on this list. Good info and supplies, I have his over voltage protection and many of his tools.  

   

John Oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley

 Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 5:38 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?  

  

     

Darin,  

    

Sometimes it's good to see others that are scratching their heads building as I am. I too had many questions as to the best way to wirre the panel so I went to one of Bob Nuckols seminars. This is his web address  http://www.aeroelectric.com/  

    

   

    

Look over his  web site and think strongly about purchasing his book as it has many wiring schematics that are simply done. If you are hooking up a Rotax 912s it has that covered. You have already received good advice from those on this list...Bob is an advocate of not using breakers for good reasons. The book Aeroelectric Connection covers these philosophies well.  

    

Happy Wiring,  

    

Dan Billingsley  

    

Mesa / KF-IV 912s / N314DW /  Building

 

 darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:  

  

        [quote][b]

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

+1 on the Bob Nuckols website and guidance, especially these days in airplanes with electronic ignition or fuel control.  Unlike the days where the mags would keep the fan turning, circuit design has become truly important even for VFR airplanes.  For example, the Diamond diesel twin was just AD'd after a couple of flight instructors took off with near-dead batteries and found that retracting the gear reduced the buss voltage enough to kill the controls for BOTH engines.



Circuit protection, be it CB or fuse, is not a personal convenience.  The protection is sized to protect the wire used, NOT for whatever is at the end of the wire.  I've seen shorted wires light paper scraps and lint on fire.  Non-aviation wire insulations can actually catch fire or melt off, posing their own hazard.  The other thing that is often ignored is that the CB or fuse provides a last-ditch chance to kill a circuit manually.  If the contacts in the switch for your electric trim just failed in the closed position, you would probably want to be able to pull the breaker ASAP.



Bob

A&P, Aero Eng

Series 5 Vixen in-work

Gaithersburg, MD

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Use little fuses, and big wires, and chances are you'll never have a fire,

plus they rarely ever break for no reason.



Use switch breakers if you like changing parts all the time. These things 

are garbage at best. At least the ones I have seen.



Use regular breakers if you like replacing parts on occasion. I changed

a bunch of these when I was in the Navy, a BUNCH. They break a lot.



Regards,

Jeff Hays

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Great info guys!  I have ordered the Aeroelectric book from Bob so hopefully that will set alot of this straight in my head.



Darin Hawkes

Series 7 (in progress)

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Solid advice on this thread.  The only thing I disagree with is John's (no offense intended) recommendation about putting automotive breakers under the dash.  



Automotive fuse boxes are made from plastic (or some sort of non-aviation polycarbonate) and automoticve grade wire.  If this catches fire then you'll have some toxic fumes quickly accumulating.  



As for mounting it under the dash, if you lose some equipment or suspect an electrical problem, being able to see which breaker tripped greatly aides in troubleshooting your in-flight malfunction/emergency.  



Again, no offense John.  This is just my opinion and it's worth the proverbial 2 cents.

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I agree that being able to get to the fuse box "might" be helpful in flight. 

See the attached pic of my panel.  On the far right you see a rectangular 

area in the face of the instrument panel.  There is a small knob at the top 

that opens the door.  Behind the door are the automotive blade fuse holders. 

There are also extra fuses in that area.  You can open this door in flight 

and get access to the fuses.  There is also an emergency bypass switch 

behind the door that will bypass the master solenoid if that solenoid should 

fail in flight.  You can regain connection from the battery to the main buss 

if the solenoid fail.



Don Smythe

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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

 	  crazyivan wrote: 	
		  Automotive fuse boxes are made from plastic (or some sort of non-aviation polycarbonate) and automoticve grade wire.  If this catches fire then you'll have some toxic fumes quickly accumulating.  

	




Not in my Kitfox, you could light a smoke grenade in the cockpit, and no

fume problems with all the draft's I have.

bajtme(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:  [quote]I agree that being able to get to the fuse box "might" be helpful in flight. 

See the attached pic of my panel. On the far right you see a rectangular 

area in the face of the instrument panel. There is a small knob at the top 

that opens the door. Behind the door are the automotive blade fuse holders. 

There are also extra fuses in that area. You can open this door in flight 

and get access to the fuses. There is also an emergency bypass switch 

behind the door that will bypass the master solenoid if that solenoid should 

fail in flight. You can regain connection from the battery to the main buss 

if the solenoid fail.



Don Smythe

---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I spent a lot of time on my panel arrangement.  My

main buss runs along the bottom of the panel and

directly to each fuse or C/B, then up to the item to

be controlled or protected.  If a gauge fails, you can

look immediately, in time and place, below for the

fuse.



I ran a verticle buss down to the counsel.  There you

will find things like my trim C/B, trim gauge and trim

switch.  No need to look for the C/B or fuse if you

get runaway trim.  You can immediately grab and pull

the C/B.  Also I wired it so counter-trimming should

trip the C/B as an immediate action item.



Some items are not realted to gauges.  For example, I

put a C/B switch to the right of my throttle for the

landing light.  On and off with your thumb while still

on the throttle.  It is a flat faced rocker switch,

not one of those pin head C/B's that mess you up in an

accident when your face hits it.



Not electrical, but the throttle is below the MP

gauge.  The prop control is below the Tach.  The

mixture control is below the EGT and Fuel/Air ration

gauges.  I was planning for old age, I guess. 



There is a main buss C/B and 2 seperate battery

circuits with masters.  Either can power the main buss

and both can be turned off in flight to isolate a

fire, leaving 2 essential busses for ignition and fuel

pumps thru seperate C/B's.



I think the only under panel fuse I have is for the

alternator field circuit.



I actually enjoyed planning it out and playing with

cardboard and stickons until I got it good enough. 

Still, I have fuses, C/B's, and C/B switches to make

it functional.  While I planned for ease of flow, easy

operations and emergencies, I may have introduced

weaker parts to make it happen.  It was a compromise,

but one that I felt would protect itself and me pretty

well, so I guess I like it.



Panel pic available on request.  (It is too many KB's

to attach here.)



Kurt S.

S-5/NSI turbo

Florida and panama

       

http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

I can heartily agree with Bob Nuckols reasons for  liking fuses over breakers...but removing blade fuses and even locating blown  circuits while trying to fly a plane can be interesting.  Breakers give the  control/visual cues I prefer.



As for your comments on wire size,  burning, Etc.  Right on!  The wire sizes should be chosen for de-rated  current draw.  This means that there should be no splices into wires to  power any one of numerous frivolous devices.  If you really need it add an  extra protected circuit.  Make sure that all your wiring is protected...  most certified aircraft will actually have one side of the buss attached  directly to it's buss so the whole circuit is protected.



Having worked  with both coloured wires and certified white wiring I now feel much more  comfortable with the white wiring.  The wires themselves are manufactured  to more exacting tolerances.  The insulations are less likely to burn and  are much more rugged.  There are many shielded cables available in  different sizes.  Finally the wire charts in AC 43 will work with certified  wire... I don't think I can say the same thing about automotive style wire in  its myriad of Sesame Street colour.

 

[img]cid:855291502(at)25052007-0421[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 

 

 



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

vft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

You don't need to restrict yourself to the color white if you want to use the higher quality Tefzel wire. It is available in just about any color including multi color. As to fuses vs breakers, I have wired quite a few airplanes and have done it both ways depending on what the owner wanted. The auto type blade fuse blocks work very well and result in a clean, light, and simple system. Never mine being able to reach them during flight. If you have designed your electrical system correctly there should never be a need to replace them while flying. For both of my own projects I chose to use a combo of switched and pull type breakers cause that's what I wanted. The important things to keep in mind are to use quality components, think through the most likely failure modes, and don't forget you will need to service something years from now. The first and last items are what frustrate folks most often. Usually in the form of a poor quality component at the end of a wire that's too short and unreachable.

 

 

 

 

   Danny Melnik

 F1 #25

 Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory

 

 Ex owner of N24ZM series 5 Safari 

 

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: Straight Breakers vs. Breaker Switch?

Not to rub in your obvious pain of being the "Ex owner of N24ZM  

series 5 Safari " , but I'm heading out west on Monday (hopefully)  

to among other things, visit the latest owner of N24ZM...I'll give it  

a pat on the cowl for you....she's a beauty!  : )



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/293+ hrs

do not archive



On May 25, 2007, at 12:51 AM, vft(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You don't need to restrict yourself to the color white if you want  

 to use the higher quality Tefzel wire. It is available in just  

 about any color including multi color. As to fuses vs breakers, I  

 have wired quite a few airplanes and have done it both ways  

 depending on what the owner wanted. The auto type blade fuse blocks  

 work very well and result in a clean, light, and simple system.  

 Never mine being able to reach them during flight. If you have  

 designed your electrical system correctly there should never be a  

 need to replace them while flying. For both of my own projects I  

 chose to use a combo of switched and pull type breakers cause  

 that's what I wanted. The important things to keep in mind are to  

 use quality components, think through the most likely failure  

 modes, and don't forget you will need to service something years  

 from now. The first and last items are what frustrate folks most  

 often. Usually in the form of a poor quality component at the end  

 of a wire that's too short and unreachable.



 Danny Melnik

 F1 #25

 Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory

 Ex owner of N24ZM series 5 Safari

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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