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mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Tom,

  

 I don't have the solution to your problem.   Having just lost 2 friends in a Europa crash, I just want you and everyone in  your position to fully understand the risks.

 It may be that in the end you have no choice but to  go it alone, in which case I wish you all the best.  There are plenty of  experienced monowheel pilots on this forum that can give you  advice.

  

 regards,

  

 Mike.

 [quote]   ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Mike and all,

 Where are the instructors to explain why the Europa  is different and difficult to land especially on hard runways with cross wind?  We until now hear only warnings. I hope there will come a discussion  why it so different even for a taildragger.

 Karel Vranken, #447 Mono XS 912ULS Airmaster CS,  only 37 hours on F-PKRL, first flight by myself with 3800 hours half of wich on  taildragger.

 ---

garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

To get a handle on the concept of landing a  monowheel, I suggest taking a bowling ball and laying a sheet of plywood 4' X 4'  on top of the bowling ball.  Then try to stand up on the plywood.  The  physics are identical.

  

 Garry Stout

 Trigear

  

 [quote]   ---

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Except the wheel will allow movement in one axis, while the bowling ball allows movement in two axis. If you are thinking that the big moment arm of the tail section hanging out in a high wind could create the twist on the wheel in the other axis, then the physics would indeed, be a bit closer to the bowling ball. However, the monowheel still ties the plane down on the ground laterally.  

   

I don’t think I would want to try the bowling ball experiment. I am not sure I would be able to do it. I would definitely need to take lessons on how to ‘land’ that one!  

   

Greg Fuchs   

Tri-gear (A050)  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry

 Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 11:57 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: builder test flying his own creation?  

  

     

To get a handle on the concept of landing a monowheel, I suggest taking a bowling ball and laying a sheet of plywood 4' X 4' on top of the bowling ball.  Then try to stand up on the plywood.  The physics are identical.  

    

   

    

Garry Stout  

    

Trigear  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

In principle you are right, Graham.

I am sure that you will agree with me, however, that a pilot not being able 

to detect

even some small deficiency in flight-behaviour of his mount is  not ready to 

go solo

in the first place, even in a Cessna, let alone a home-built - which proves 

your point,

by the way.

All the best,

Niels

---

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Karel,

 I may be wrong, but one reason might be the elasticity of  the outrigger legs.

 A standard 2-wheeler taildragger need not be more  direction-stable than the 

 monowheel, but the slightest turn of the latter will flex the  outer outrigger, thereby, I think,

  increasing the force of the turn, making it more  difficult to correct it.

 And the way to correct a such a turn, as we all know, is by  short, rapid taps on the 

 opposite rudder pedal, and not, as may be the natural  reflex, keeping your foot down on

 the pedal, until the whole contraption enters a turn  in the opposite direction which you will never

 get out of, until the lowered wing-tip scrapes the surface and  the precious propeller

 blades emit sounds of destruction.

  

 Niels ---

m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hello Karel,  

   

While it will not provide a complete answer to your question, I believe a number of points made in the attached article on handling the monowheel Europa may help to explain some of the reasons why the aircraft is different and how its handling should be approached.  

   

This article was prepared for Europa Flyer No 37, June-August 2003, but I'm happy to provide it here as helpful safety material to everyone on the List, not just those who are members of the Europa Club.  

   

While the UK PFA coaching scheme is available only to members of the PFA, the concept of qualified instructors providing coaching at reasonable cost on homebuilt aircraft is universally applicable – the difficulty of obtaining a suitable aircraft can usually be overcome by making an appeal on the List.  

   

Best regards  

   

Mike Gregory  

Europa Club Safety Officer  

safety(at)europaclub.org.uk (safety(at)europaclub.org.uk)   

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of karelvranken

 Sent: 12 June 2007 18:58

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: builder test flying his own creation?  

  

     

Mike and all,  

    

Where are the instructors to explain why the Europa is different and difficult to land especially on hard runways with cross wind? We until now hear only warnings. I hope there will come a discussion why it so different even for a taildragger.  

    

Karel Vranken, #447 Mono XS 912ULS Airmaster CS, only 37 hours on F-PKRL, first flight by myself with 3800 hours half of wich on taildragger.  

    

---

HANDLING_THE_MONOWHEEL_EUROPA.doc

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karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Niels, 

 Maybe you are wright. I have to read your  explanation five times more trying to understand what you realy mean. I also  think there is more than the outriggers in question with a  groundloop.

 Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL (I forgot to mention  that I also have some 2500 hours of gliding experience)

 [quote]   ---

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

This is a fantastic writeup. Thanks for posting it.



--- Mike Gregory <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> wrote:



[quote] Hello Karel,

 

  

 

 While it will not provide a complete answer to your question, I

 believe a

 number of points made in the attached article on handling the

 monowheel

 Europa may help to explain some of the reasons why the aircraft is

 different

 and how its handling should be approached.

 

  

 

 This article was prepared for Europa Flyer No 37, June-August 2003,

 but I'm

 happy to provide it here as helpful safety material to everyone on

 the List,

 not just those who are members of the Europa Club.

 

  

 

 While the UK PFA coaching scheme is available only to members of the

 PFA,

 the concept of qualified instructors providing coaching at reasonable

 cost

 on homebuilt aircraft is universally applicable - the difficulty of

 obtaining a suitable aircraft can usually be overcome by making an

 appeal on

 the List.

 

  

 

 Best regards

 

  

 

 Mike Gregory

 

 Europa Club Safety Officer

 

 safety(at)europaclub.org.uk 

 

  

 

   _____  

 

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

 karelvranken

 Sent: 12 June 2007 18:58

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: builder test flying his own creation?

 

  

 

 Mike and all,

 

 Where are the instructors to explain why the Europa is different and

 difficult to land especially on hard runways with cross wind? We

 until now

 hear only warnings. I hope there will come a discussion why it so

 different

 even for a taildragger.

 

 Karel Vranken, #447 Mono XS 912ULS Airmaster CS, only 37 hours on

 F-PKRL,

 first flight by myself with 3800 hours half of wich on taildragger.

 

 ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Mike,

 Thank you for the reminder. And thanks again to  John Brownlow. Special attention must be given to the few words about keeping  the rudder neutral by touch down. This is not evident by serious cross winds.  Also keeping the speed as low as 55 kts over the figures is important. Than, as  I observed many times, the tailwheel is touching first. This means that the  direction and corrections come from both rudder and tailwheel. An instant  earlier you are correcting direction only by rudder and airflow. I think the  difficulty in the learning process is to apply the correct dose at the correct  moment.

 My two cents...

 Karel Vranken, # 447 F-PKRL, still scrupulous to  keep it straight.

 [quote]   ---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Reading Andys comment Europa Flyer No 37:



"With the wheel in contact with the ground any yaw resulting in a

direction change will cause a roll in the opposite direction, therefore

the opposite aileron input will be needed compared to that in flight.

Better to concentrate on maintaining directional control."



I don't quite understand what he is saying about roll.



I understand directional control is paramount.



If left yaw begins, "Right now" correction is needed with right rudder.



Is he saying that although right rudder will be needed to correct left

yaw, a bit of left aileron (opposite aileron compared to rudder input) is

needed to level wings?



Ron Parigoris

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hi Ron - it is common in all the taildraggers I've flown that application of the ailerons

 on the ground will result in a yaw in the opposite direction.  This effect is more 

 dramatic on some, less on others but is very typical.  Not unique to the monowheel.

   I was taught that when entering a ground loop situation, always hold the ailerons

 fully in the direction of the yaw and this will prevent or minimize the potential ground

 loop.  I really don't think the mono is any better or worse than any other TD in this

 regard.

  

                                               Glenn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:12:15 +0000

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: builder test flying his own creation?

 From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

 

 Reading Andys comment Europa Flyer No 37:

 

 "With the wheel in contact with the ground any yaw resulting in a

 direction change will cause a roll in the opposite direction, therefore

 the opposite aileron input will be needed compared to that in flight.

 Better to concentrate on maintaining directional control."

 

 I don't quite understand what he is saying about roll.

 

 I understand directional control is paramount.

 

 If left yaw begins, "Right now" correction is needed with right rudder.

 

 Is he saying that although right rudder will be needed to correct left

 yaw, a bit of left aileron (opposite aileron compared to rudder input) is

 needed to level wings?

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

&gt====================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


Make every IM count. Download Windows Live Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free.  Make it count!  [quote][b]

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Hi Ron - it is common in all the taildraggers I've flown that application of the ailerons

 on the ground will result in a yaw in the opposite direction.  This effect is more 

 dramatic on some, less on others but is very typical.  Not unique to the monowheel.

   I was taught that when entering a ground loop situation, always hold the ailerons

 fully in the direction of the yaw and this will prevent or minimize the potential ground

 loop.  I really don't think the mono is any better or worse than any other TD in this

 regard.

  

                                               Glenn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:12:15 +0000

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: builder test flying his own creation?

 From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

 

 Reading Andys comment Europa Flyer No 37:

 

 "With the wheel in contact with the ground any yaw resulting in a

 direction change will cause a roll in the opposite direction, therefore

 the opposite aileron input will be needed compared to that in flight.

 Better to concentrate on maintaining directional control."

 

 I don't quite understand what he is saying about roll.

 

 I understand directional control is paramount.

 

 If left yaw begins, "Right now" correction is needed with right rudder.

 

 Is he saying that although right rudder will be needed to correct left

 yaw, a bit of left aileron (opposite aileron compared to rudder input) is

 needed to level wings?

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

&gt====================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club.   Join Live Search Club!

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Ah, that's one i found out while taxiing.

In my words then: For instance in a left turn, the plane rocks over to the  

right, leaning hard on the outrigger.

With the aileron the noise on the tarmac is less, and the fuse stays  

better upright.

Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



http://www.europaowners.org/kit600

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Ron,



What Andy is saying is that it is important, neigh essential, that the wings

are kept level when the aircraft is on the ground.  Remember that all other

conventional tail draggers are kept this way by the u/carriage and in

general only ground loop when pilots do not correct yaw with rudder.  The

Europa is different because it will roll as it yaws. Most pilots are not

used to using aileron during ground rolls prior to lift of and after

touchdown.



If the Europa develops a yaw to the right say, it will, if you do nothing

about it, roll over onto the left outrigger.  Due to the high centre of

gravity of the loaded aircraft, as the yaw increases the rolling effect

toward the left outrigger increases. Very soon after this the left wingtip

touches the ground and the rest is history (many times demonstrated)



To prevent a dangerous yawing excursion  developing it is necessary firstly

to keep the wings parallel to the ground. Hence as a yaw to the right

becomes apparent, although you are going to apply left rudder to correct the

yaw, you will also need right aileron for a while to pick up the down going

wing. IE as Andy says, use the controls in the opposite sense to that in

flight.



Only if the wings can be kept reasonably level at all times will ground

looping be avoided.



The greatest cause of a yaw developing in the first instance is touching

down with the tail wheel offset from straight. If you do, it immediately

throws in a significant yawing force which is not easy to correct. Kicking

off drift and then centering the rudder immediately prior to ground contact

is therefore essential.  The greater the crosswind the greater the drift

that needs to be removed and the greater likelihood of not getting it quite

right.  Hence the cross wind limits I would recommend for early flights of

not more than 7kts from the left and 10kts from the right(Rotax912/914

powered aircraft). I would also apply the same limits to the take off.



Looking well ahead in the flare to some point slightly to the left of the

runway centre line will help to reduce the tendency to align the cowling

centre with the runway centre line. 



I submit these comments as a Europa pilot of some 850hrs Mono and 350 hrs

Trigear.  I have also sat with and converted many other Europa owner/pilots

in my capacity as PFA CRI.  Oh yes and by the way I have ground looped a

Europa myself. A long time ago but I have vivid memories.



Pete Jeffers



--

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Peter,

Clear and comprehensif. I only will ad that grass is more forgiving than 

hard runways hence a tip for beginners.

Thank you,

Karel Vranken, # 447  F-PKRL.

---

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Peter...thank you for your very clear and succinct post...it is a 

keeper for my file on landing technique!



Fred

A194



do not archive



On Thursday, June 14, 2007, at 01:26  AM, Peter Jeffers wrote:



[quote] 

 <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net>



 Ron,



 What Andy is saying is that it is important, neigh essential, that the 

 wings

 are kept level when the aircraft is on the ground.  Remember that all 

 other

 conventional tail draggers are kept this way by the u/carriage and in

 general only ground loop when pilots do not correct yaw with rudder.  

 The

 Europa is different because it will roll as it yaws. Most pilots are 

 not

 used to using aileron during ground rolls prior to lift of and after

 touchdown.



 If the Europa develops a yaw to the right say, it will, if you do 

 nothing

 about it, roll over onto the left outrigger.  Due to the high centre of

 gravity of the loaded aircraft, as the yaw increases the rolling effect

 toward the left outrigger increases. Very soon after this the left 

 wingtip

 touches the ground and the rest is history (many times demonstrated)



 To prevent a dangerous yawing excursion  developing it is necessary 

 firstly

 to keep the wings parallel to the ground. Hence as a yaw to the right

 becomes apparent, although you are going to apply left rudder to 

 correct the

 yaw, you will also need right aileron for a while to pick up the down 

 going

 wing. IE as Andy says, use the controls in the opposite sense to that 

 in

 flight.



 Only if the wings can be kept reasonably level at all times will ground

 looping be avoided.



 The greatest cause of a yaw developing in the first instance is 

 touching

 down with the tail wheel offset from straight. If you do, it 

 immediately

 throws in a significant yawing force which is not easy to correct. 

 Kicking

 off drift and then centering the rudder immediately prior to ground 

 contact

 is therefore essential.  The greater the crosswind the greater the 

 drift

 that needs to be removed and the greater likelihood of not getting it 

 quite

 right.  Hence the cross wind limits I would recommend for early 

 flights of

 not more than 7kts from the left and 10kts from the right(Rotax912/914

 powered aircraft). I would also apply the same limits to the take off.



 Looking well ahead in the flare to some point slightly to the left of 

 the

 runway centre line will help to reduce the tendency to align the 

 cowling

 centre with the runway centre line.



 I submit these comments as a Europa pilot of some 850hrs Mono and 350 

 hrs

 Trigear.  I have also sat with and converted many other Europa 

 owner/pilots

 in my capacity as PFA CRI.  Oh yes and by the way I have ground looped 

 a

 Europa myself. A long time ago but I have vivid memories.



 Pete Jeffers



 --

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Oh, and here I thought I was very lucid, Karel!

 And yes, there are several more factors than the flexibility  of the outriggers, but I am still of the opinion, that this an important  part.

 Of course, if the legs couldn't flex under load, they  would break instead. 

 Niels

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Lucky Man! Wish I had as much time airborn without an engine.

Graham



karelvranken wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Niels,


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL (I forgot to mention that I also have some 

 2500 hours of gliding experience)

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: builder test flying his own creation?

Karel,



Of course that is so true and is indeed a tip for beginners (and others)



Pete



--

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