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Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

John,



The problem here is that only a very few Model IVs have been converted to 

nose wheel.  There is no data available from either Skystar;s archives or 

Kitfox Aircraft.  It is a one-off design modification.  I think this is what 

prompted the original question.  Is there anyone out there that has done 

this and if so do you have the measurements and form for inputing the data. 

The Six through the Seven and Sport have factory specs for nose wheel and 

factory supplied documentation.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

1998 850 hrs.



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

The problem, as I have said, is it's not compatible  with the system of locating the CG  and that is the system needed to  document your CG.



You only need to do the weighing and measuring once and  while a calculator will make life easier (it usually does) it can be done easily  with a pencil and paper,eraser optional.  These weighings and measurements  are made with oil, coolant (if needed) and unusable fuel on board.  the  hardest part of the weighing is levelling the plane.  To do the weighing it  must be levelled as per designers instructions.  I think the Kitfox uses  the bottom of the pilot's door for levelling To do the calculations you need to know that an  arm is a measurement from the datum along the longitudinal axis of the  plane.  The nose wheel or tail wheel will have an arm that will never  change unless you change the configuration of the landing gear.  In that  case you will have to re-weigh the plane. (not too likely eh?)  The  main gear will have its own arm which again will never change.  When you  have the arms measured (once) and the empty weight measured (once) then you can  do the empty weight and balance report.



Before each flight you only have  to add the weight of the fuel at a given arm (never changes), the weight of  front seat people (another arm never changes) and usually cargo is in a  compartment which has another arm that never changes.  With simple  multiplication and addition the new CG for any weight location combo can be  located.  As long as the CG isn't too far forward or back too far (the  flight envelope) you're good to go.

  

 I think the Kitfox actually had you do the  weighing with minimum and maximum flyable weights.  that way it becomes  impossible to fly out of balance as long as you don't put an anvil back in  fuselage.



You will hear of guys putting their batteries in the tail of  the plane to get a good balance.  Once the empty weight balance is achieved  and documented (the W&B report) then the monster will turn into a  mouse.



Keep with it... It's not nearly so bad as it sounds.

 

[img]cid:030001823(at)19062007-3454[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 

 

 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

I had just caught the thread and sent an email to Francisco with a W&B

spreadsheet.



Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com

"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"



--

mclayton(at)rochester.rr.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:44 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Something that might be helpful....

On the FAA website, you can find something called the "Weight and Balance Handbook"  It does a good job of explaining the concepts, and gives you all the information necessary to determine weight and balance for your aircraft.  As others have said, it is a very easy process to go through.  



My job involves running flight operations for an experimental aircraft, where we frequently change the aircraft configuration and therefore weight and balance.  We maintain a spreadsheet on the computer, which allows us to put in the necessary information to accurately calculate W&B for any aircraft configuration, with a few simple measurements: Weight and Distance of the Weight from the Datum of the aircraft.  When we preflight the aircraft, we always review the W&B data to make sure that the CG is within the range specified by the manufacturer.



All of this takes very little time, and is easy to do.  It will be one of the key things that will help to assure a safe flight.  I highly recommend it!



 Mike



mclayton(at)rochester.rr.com (mclayton(at)rochester.rr.com)

Mobile: 585-737-5506

8 Adams Trail

Spencerport, NY 14559

N16AF (KF II  Rebuild in Progress)

 



On Jun 19, 2007, at 4:11 PM, JC Propellerdesign wrote:

[quote]Sure you can do it this way, (this is the normal way)

just make sure that the plane is in the correct angle it should be weighted.

 

Jan

[quote]---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

North of the 49th we are  allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear  configurations...  Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be  considerable, down.  The flight log designates which W&B is in effect  at any given time.  Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional  W&B reports to designate the installation of different  equipment.

  

 Noel

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

When I built my fox, I put together an owners manual that covered many W&B options, as in short wings, long wings, with and with out floats and skis and baggage compartment under. This was accepted by the FAA.  

John Oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:25 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV  

  

     

North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear configurations...  Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down.  The flight log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time.  Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different equipment.  

    

   

    

Noel  

  [quote]  

--

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

For W&B you can use this spread  sheet.

  

 all you need is a datum, distance from datum to  wheel(s) and datum to wing leading edge, plus the MAC in case of constant cord  wings MAC is same as cord, use a weight and string to get the points down to  floor where it is eazy to measure, you can use 2 inch masking tape to mark it on  the floor. and the aircraft must be in the position  stated by designer. so one scale under each wheel.

 And, close the hangar doors!

  

 Jan 

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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

That's funny, close the hangar doors.  Sounds like me, whenever I do anything to the fox, I close the hangar doors.  Don't want anybody seeing what you're doing do we.  I'm serious here.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

I just had a recolection of when I did the weight and balance on my plane.  I measured from the front of the wing to the bolt on the tail wheel and got something like 161 and used this for the arm for the tail wheel.  Now you should be able to do the same with the nose wheel, but put a negative for the arm.  I would think, correct me if I'm wrong.  also make sure and go straight out on the measurment, not on an angle from wing to nose wheel.

mclayton(at)rochester.rr.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Noel, 

As a practical matter, we do basically the same thing.  For various configurations, we have weight and balance info.  This info is always reviewed pre-flight to make sure that we have the flight configuration and the weight and balance in sync.  Also, we have the weight and balance data with us as soon as the aircraft is rolled out of the hangar, in the event of a ramp check.  Again, all data needs to be logged, and checked pre-flight to insure safety.  An airplane that is out of weight and balance limits is not safe to fly.  In my mind this is one of the most basic things a pilot can do to ensure a safe flight, along with the rest of the pre-fight checklist.



 Mike



mclayton(at)rochester.rr.com (mclayton(at)rochester.rr.com)

Mobile: 585-737-5506

8 Adams Trail

Spencerport, NY 14559

N16AF (KF II  Rebuild in Progress)

 



On Jun 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

[quote]  North of the 49th we are allowed to have a second or third W&B in reserve to cover the different gear configurations...  Just helps keep the paperwork, which can be considerable, down.  The flight log designates which W&B is in effect at any given time.  Helicopters and spray plane may also have additional W&B reports to designate the installation of different equipment.

  

 Noel

 [quote]  

  --

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I 

guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them.



When I licensed, I weighed/calculated for most adverse forward CG and most 

adverse aft CG.  Basically that limits me to about 25 pounds in my baggage 

area.  This info is in a packet with the airworthiness certificate and 

resides under the seat cushion.  With that known, any combination of 

passengers, cargo and fuel load is OK as long as the baggage sack is loaded 

under 25 lbs. and I am not over gross (which calculation I can pretty much 

do in my head just by looking at my passenger.  With that in mind, when I go 

on one of the protracted cross countrys, I pack most personal gear in a back 

pack that is strapped in the passenger seat.  Then a careful loading of 

ultra light back packing gear - four pound tent and 1.5 pound sleeping bag 

etc. goes in the baggage sack - well under 25 lbs.  I haven't done a W&B 

calculation since I changed to the aluminum spring gear back in about 2000. 

Personally, I don't feel that I am an unsafe pilot for doing it this way.



When I worked for UAL for a time, I was what they called a SOR, basically a 

flight planner.  I did W&B calculations for a living but these airplanes 

spread the payload over a long tube - souls and cargo and a manifest for 

each flight was required by law before departure and under the circumsances 

was most certainly prudent.  Sometimes we had to block seats and or move 

passengers.  Sometimes the aft cargo pit was not used.  It all depended on 

the specific situation - fuel load along a swept wing, etc.



Are those that are doing a W&B before each flight actually flying Kitfoxes? 

There was a freighter that went down East of Sacramento ten years or so ago 

due to a mis\-ballanced airplane or shifting cargo, but is anyone aware of a 

Kitfox going down due to a loading problem.  I am curious now.  Have I been 

doing this all wrong or am I just mis reading some of the comments.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

1998 870 hrs.



---

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

 	  Quote: 	
		  I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this subject. I

guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them. 	




Well said. When I bought my Kitfox, I played with the W&B charts enough to figure out that as long as I didn't put anything in the luggage sack behind the seat, there was no combination of pilot passenger or fuel that would put me outside of the safe zone.. Assuming that I'm under gross. Since then, I only worry about the W part of a W&B. Unfortunately, I'm heavy enough myself that I can't carry full fuel and an FAA standard passenger so it is something I check often. One day, I'm going to want to put some luggage back there and carry a passenger. When that happens, I'll pull out the W&B charts again.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

<is anyone aware of a 

Kitfox going down due to a loading problem. >

   

  Lowell,

  If I remember right the KF Lite that the Banks Brothers built went down upon takeoff due to an improper weight distribution. This can happen to any of us if we get careless.

  Dan Billingsley

  Mesa, AZ

  KF-IV , 912-s  314DW

  Building     http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Build1.html  

  



 

 [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

When I did the loading for my recent trip, I weighed everything that  

went into the plane. As much as I could, I put things that weren't  

immediately necessary into the baggage sack. My sack has a capacity  

of 40 lbs, and I loaded 39 lbs and 10 ounces into it. One day later,  

I swapped places between my clothes bag and my sleeping bag, which  

put the heavier clothes bag up in front of the seat. (I had removed  

the right-side stick for the trip) This configuration put me well  

within the CG range no matter what the fuel situation, or possible  

passenger situation....barring anyone over about 220 lbs, I think.  

And most of the time that I would have a passenger, I'd have all the  

camping gear out of the plane. This is with the normal taildragger on  

a IV.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/over 340 hrs



On Jun 20, 2007, at 10:42 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 I wonder if I am mis-reading some of the previous posts on this  

 subject. I guess I'm a bit out of sync with some of them.



 Are those that are doing a W&B before each flight actually flying  

 Kitfoxes? There was a freighter that went down East of Sacramento  

 ten years or so ago due to a mis\-ballanced airplane or shifting  

 cargo, but is anyone aware of a Kitfox going down due to a loading  

 problem.  I am curious now.  Have I been doing this all wrong or am  

 I just mis reading some of the comments.



 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park, CA

 Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

 1998 870 hrs.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Lowell,

THe only thing I see you doing wrong is putting the paperwork under your seat.  Suppose to be out in view of anybody entering your airplane.  I sit mine on the back opening to the luggage, in a plastic baggy. 



My fox is configured for 30lb in the back two 170lb each pass and pilot and two 13 gal tanks.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Mike,



As I understand it, the registration has to be in plain view.  That is 

postioned appropriately with a reduced size copy of the airworthiness cert. 

The registration cert. is on top.  The original full size documents are 

under the seat cushion.  I have never seen an airplane with an 8-1/2"X11" 

document in full view anywhere in the cockpit.



Lowell



---

Joel

Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Bremerton, WA USA

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

My initial W&B calculations had me a little concerned as I was near the forward CG limit with a light pilot, but I have since come to appreciate the configuration as I flew with 150 lbs of granite in the cargo bin of my model 5 during phase 1 testing and was not quite fully aft CG. The plane wouldn't actually stall at 3000 rpm (912uls) but just gently porpoise in an easy descent.  All that may change once she goes on floats.

_________________
Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Lowell

my mistake, I thought you were putting all your paperwork under the seat.  I find it easier to just fold up the paperwork and put it all with the airworthiness stuff.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

Lowell you are correct on all accounts.  You  can certainly do your W&B for most forward and most rearward loading  situations and as you said providing you don't put more than 25lb in your cargo  area you're good to go.



This is not a standard empty weight W&B  similar to what you used to do.  As you mentioned when you use the standard  W&B form you will have to W&B calculations before every  flight. 



My aircraft was weighed and the Empty weight CG was  calculated as was a forward most CG ( gas in the header and an 85 lb. pilot. The  maximum weight was also calculated (full tanks and something like 250lb in the  front seats and 50 lb in the cargo cabinet behind the seats).  As I  mentioned to Michel on floats as the weight increases the back of the floats  sink lower....  All I really need to do is check the back of the floats  before take off....  If they are under water I'm over weight and also out  of W&B.



 

[img]cid:949221519(at)21062007-1303[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 

 

 

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Nose wheel and weight & balance for Classic IV

I also do a post flight  inspection.  That's when the niggling little things I noticed during the  flight are still fresh in my mind.  Inspections are a great way to avoid  problems, legal and otherwise.

  

 A description of exactly  which W&B report is in effect has to be entered into the journey log for the  airplane before it is allowed to fly with a new configuration.   

  

 The running joke around here is  when the paperwork is approximately equal to the weight of the plane it MAY be  allowed to fly!  My kitfox, flying, is almost there 

   Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

  

  

 Do not archive



 [quote]   

       

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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