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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

--- fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kurt, I believe the Gray Ghost was our late Mike

 Harter with a Model IV/Subaru who lost his life out

 west several years ago when he got trapped in a

 canyon he couldn't climb out of.

 Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

 Deke

 S5/NSI Subaru/CAP

 Northeast Michigan


	


That's the one Deke.  I was trying not to go any

further with the Ghost name than to tie it to the

color and sound.  Mike was always a likeable guy.  We

have lost too many from this list already and being

seen is just another way to be a little safer.



I painted my 5 white with red and maroon trim.



I also left the flapperons polished aluminum to flash

in the sun and put mirrored tint on the overhead

glass.  Nothing beats a sun reflection.



Kurt Schrader

S-5 NSI turbo

Florida and Panama

       

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

At 01:00 PM 6/29/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are there any, &(^%(&^%., I wish I had done

that before I covered, items I need to make sure I have done.


	


I built a baggage compartment in a completed IV. I also installed all 

the electrical, hydraulics, firewall penetrations, much of the 

pitot/static, and much of the firewall forward detailing. I sure wish 

it had all been done before covering. This lead me to think that, 

were I to build from scratch I would complete the plane, 100%, prior 

to covering, then disassemble, cover, and paint. More work, but a 

much better product. For example:



Fair in the aft edge of the cowl shell.

Weld tabs for the baggage compartment.

Weld structure for electrical components. (E.g. support structure.)

Modify the instrument panel attachments for easy access to the back 

side. (E.g. hinges, etc.)

Degauss the forward structure so the compass works perfectly.

Check the avionics, radios, and transponder with the engine running 

and re-run any noisy wires.

Add upholstery tabs.

Use blind nuts wherever access is covered. (Already mentioned but so 

important as to be mentioned again.)

Weld exhaust supports. (Try to get rid of as many Adel clamps as 

possible, everywhere.)

Perfect the cooling system.

Sexy gap seals on elevator and rudder.

The list goes on and on.



Note, however, that you do have to be careful with this method. Some 

structure will change when covered. The inboard most ribs, if not 

supported adequately, will bow away from the fuselage when the 

fabric's tensioned. Buildups on the inboard rib and butt rib can 

cause interference if they were closely spaced to begin with. Sloppy 

fabric termination can interfere with the wing tips. Fuselage tubes 

can bow in, modifying internal structure such as baggage 

compartments. (Supports should always be at tube junctions, anyway.)



I give up. . .

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Lowell and Kurt, I think I read somewhere that the US

air force has 

decided that black was the best visible colour for an

aircraft during 

daytime. Can you confirm that or have I just been

dreaming?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



The best color depends upon where you want to be seen,

or not seen.  I always thought it was funny when our

airforce painted their planes green.  Didn't they

expect to be flying when trouble came?  Now many are

gray, but some are black.  I think the black is for

radiation absorption against IR weapons, better hiding

at night and better hiding up high.  But I think they

stand out when looking down on them in daylight.



Years ago before the KitFox was introduced, I was

considering another plane and wanted to paint it green

and brown.  Looked good on trees!  Then I thought

about how anyone would find me if I went down in the

trees.



I once saw an army helo with one white blade and one

black blade on top.  You couldn't miss it from above! 

Your mind knows it can't fly with one blade and you

are immediately drawn to it.  I was impressed with how

well it stood out even from miles away.  Still

couldn't bring myself to paint one wing white and the

other black....



Kurt Schrader

S-5 NSI/turbo

Florida and Panama

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:01 am Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

I've been following this thread with a bit of  interest.  What I get is simply, see and be seen.



Lowell had made a  lot of practical observations in paint schemes.  The use of the colour  black was mentioned that it could cause the top of the wing to change shape (due  to shrinkage) on a hot summer day. 



My own plane is white with,  would you believe it, navy blue and Day-glo orange stripes.  The very first  time I saw it I thought to myself if it ever goes down it will be easy to find  even in snow.  The guy who built the plane had a number of other aircraft  over the years most of which had very similar paint schemes.  One thing to  keep in consideration if going with the Day-Glo is it will fade pretty  quickly.



Thanks to whoever started the discussion on colours.



I'm  going to include a couple of reduced pics of the plane which only flies day  VFR.



[img]cid:400545812(at)01072007-29BF[/img]  

 [img]cid:400545812(at)01072007-29C6[/img]

 



Noel 

Do not archive

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

fly2wb(at)dishmail.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Would you happen to be going to Oshkosh Andy? They have a great covering

class that includes a seminar that explains the process in detail with

many tips to get your plane finished. Then they will take you over to the

workshop were you will be able to cover a rudder complete with tapes.

I actually went through the class twice and went home with a newfound

confidence---it was easy!



Brad

Wichita Kansas

5--Lyc 0-235

do not archive





 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks guys for the many comments and suggestions you have offered.  I

 THINK

 I have done about all I can do in preparation for the covering process.  I

 have one more wire to run and everything I can think of has at least been

 prefit and removed or left in place if it won't interfere with the

 covering.

 I do believe I have about run out of excuses to go ahead and get it done.

 If anything else comes to mind I'm still listening.  Thanks again.



 Andy Fultz

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

On Jul 1, 2007, at 2:30 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When flying in a group some sort of second color highlight is helpful.


	


You have a lot more experience in formation flying than me, Lowell, so 

your comment on this would be most appreciated:

 From the little experience I have in re-grouping in the sky, and 

together with my fellow pilots in the club, we have found out that if a 

meeting is arranged, one aircraft has to turn around a known 

geographical feature 500 feet above the other. It is then the lowest 

plane that has to spot the highest one and manoeuvre to come behind 

him. The reason being: It is much easier to see an aircraft against the 

sky than against the ground. Do you agree or do you know of another 

procedure?

This was again proved to me today when I flew with another aircraft to 

a nearby airfield. Since the other aircraft was an instructor with a 

student, they wanted to do a few touch and go before leaving for the 

return journey. I was to take off when they were on the downwind leg of 

their last traffic pattern; we were to fly to the reporting point 

exiting the airfield CTR zone go go further in G zone. Since I was 

ahead of the other guy, I flew slow to give him a chance to catch up. 

As we arrived at the reporting point, I saw him passing maybe 200 feet 

above me and ... he never saw me! Once on a unicom frequency, he called 

me to ask where I was and I answered: Behind you!

Okay, my colours are silver and dark blue with red nose and red wing 

tips. But he didn't see me on the background of the Norwegian forested 

mountains.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Michel,  Your exerience is frequent in our group also.  Sometimes it takes 

some time to form up again after a long segment of flying.  We will often 

pick ground features to offer position reports.  Sometimes it is a quick 

find and other times it still takes a while.  What is the most likely 

scenerio with our flights is that most will fly in visual contact with at 

least one other airplane. Often that airplane is in visual with another and 

so on.  But on occasion when preparing to land as a flight of ##, we have to 

consciously reform the group and it is often a challenge.  Occasionally the 

airplane determined to be the lead airplane will do a steep 360 to show the 

motion and broad wing surfaces.   I would think that the plan you use - 

forming up on the higher airplane - generally wouldn't work for us, because 

more times than not, the lead airplanes are down way low which adds to the 

challenge of being seen.  I have had occasion to following barn roofs in 

hilly country thinking that the glare from the roof is the glare from the 

top of a wing.



One thing that is important in group flying is ensuring all the airplanes in 

the group have their altimiters set to the same barometric pressure.  It is 

comforting having the unaccouted for airplane at a differnt altitude, 

especially when both are reporting over the intersection of the two roads or 

over the south shoreline of the lake.



We do talk a lot to each other.  One quote from a recent trip.  Ken, 

"There's nothing down there."  Mark, "What are you looking for?"  Ken, 

"Nothing."  Mark, "Then you've found it."  Ken, "Yeah, I know, it's down on 

my left."



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

1998 850 hrs.

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

I want to say that there is no reason for a fox to get trapped in a cove.  It will do a 90degree banking turn that will absolutely pull your eyes out and turn you on a dime.  Next you can pull up slightly and hit full rudder and with aileron and do a hammer head wing over.  I practice both of these and can tell you, at least with a 4, it can be done.  I've also used it for a turn back after the engine went to less than 50 percent.  I wouldn't do this if you don't know the fox though.   Put at least 300 hrs on it before even attempting to try it, and at altitude.  I learned the hammer when at a mountain flying class, guy had 20000 hrs, and in a cessna at that.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Andy-



I had another thought about applying the masking tapes...get the  

plastic fine-line tapes from your local auto paint store. When using  

them don't pull to stretch them, just pull them taut. Use them for  

where you are going to have a stripe, or wherever there is a change  

of color. Once the fine line tape is down, you can use regular  

masking tape (good quality) for applying the masking paper...NOT  

newspaper (it bleeds the color through sometimes, because it is  

porous)...to the fine line tape. And whenever one tape crosses  

another, make SURE you use your fingernail to *absolutely* make sure  

that the crossing tape is tight up to the underlying tape, or you'll  

get a "blow-under" of paint which you will see when the tape is  

removed. Even if you don't have one tape crossing another, this can  

happen even where the tape crosses your false ribs, or other hard  

edges, and even your finishing tapes. One of my wings shows some of  

this behavior, but I got better when I did the second wing.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/350+ hrs

On Jun 30, 2007, at 3:07 PM, Andy Fultz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <andynfultz(at)bellsouth.net>



 Thanks guys for the many comments and suggestions you have  

 offered.  I THINK

 I have done about all I can do in preparation for the covering  

 process.  I

 have one more wire to run and everything I can think of has at  

 least been

 prefit and removed or left in place if it won't interfere with the  

 covering.

 I do believe I have about run out of excuses to go ahead and get it  

 done.

 If anything else comes to mind I'm still listening.  Thanks again.



 Andy Fultz

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Kurt's comments reminded me of something else...make sure that you  

put a reinforcing "doily" wherever there is something that might rub  

or touch a part of the aircraft. I put one where the attaching nuts  

and cotter pins for the flaperon mechanism comes close to touching  

the fabric behind the door openings on the sides of the fuselage. I  

also put one over the fabric where the wing tank quick-drains were... 

(I chose not to use the drains, and rely on my header tank for  

sumping the fuel for any moisture (haven't found any yet) ). On my  

recent trip to CA and back, I noticed that the vibration had worn a  

hole through the fabric AND the doily anyway, so I've got a repair to  

do.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/350+ hrs

On Jun 30, 2007, at 4:47 PM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

 --- Andy Fultz <andynfultz(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Good afternoon guys.  I'm about to embark on what I

> hope to be the final big

> step in the build process.  I THINK I'm ready to

> cover and paint my project.......

>

> Andy Fultz

 Hi Andy,

 Don't know the particulars of your plane, but make

 sure you provide access to everything for maintenance

 before you cover.

 On my S-5 I missed using blind nuts on a few places

 like the baggage floor and rudder peddle mounts.  Much

 harder to work on once covered.  To remove the rudder

 peddles, I needed to remove the firewall and

 everything on it!  Check for stuff like that first.

 Not everything is best done by the plans.

 Kurt S.

 S-5/NSI turbo

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Andy,

Lynn's comments below reminded me of another painting tip, after you have 

taped for your second color shoot the edges of the tape with the base color 

first, then if there is "blow-under" it will be the same color and will seal 

the holes and edges so when you shoot the 2nd color it will not creep under 

the tape. It works, I have used this method.

Lloyd

Model 4 built-flown-sold

Model 5 building 912

UP of Mi

(do not archive)

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Next thing to a friket, Eh, Lynn.



Sorry.... One day after Canada day and I still haven't got the Eh out 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

I'd love to stomp all over this stupid EH thing. I was born in Canada, have 

lived here for 54 years and have probably met two people who say EH, at the 

end of a sentence. Lets not create anymore stereotypes.



Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582

do not archive

---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

--- kitfoxmike <customtrans(at)qwest.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I want to say that there is no reason for a fox to

 get trapped in a cove.  It will do a 90 degree

 banking turn that will absolutely pull your eyes out

 and turn you on a dime..........

 I wouldn't do this if you don't know the fox

 though....

 --------

 kitfoxmike

 model IV, 1200

 speedster

 912ul

---------------------------------------------------
	


Just to add on to Mike's comment, it pays to get some

aerobatic, gliding and IFR training under your belt. 

You don't have to qualify at them, but get enough

training to be comfortable when exiting a bad

situation.



And you may learn your personal limitations better

making you take the exit strategy sooner rather than

too late.  Once you know you are not too good at

hammerhead turns or staying upright in a cloud, you

know better not to go there.



"A man's got to know his limitations."



Kurt Schrader

S-5/NSI turbo

Florida and Panama

       

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Pre Cover and Finish Thoughts?

Another one for you Andy,



If you have wires, pitot lines, etc that you have

fastened to the inside of the tubes that will be

against the fabric, don't use plastic ties to hold the

wires.  They rub the fabric and the plastic gets

brittle over time and fails.



Instead use stitching line, or pinked tape wrapped and

glued around the tube.  I tried all 3 and like the

tape wrap better for saving the fabric touching it. 

They just glue together and don't rub at all.



Kurt Schrader

S-5/NSI turbo

Florida and Panama

       

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