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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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It is easy to point the finger of blame after the event and what I am about
to say is not intended to blame anyone but rather offered as food for
thought.
It seems to me that there is a serious flaw in the regulatory system that
has allowed this (and probably other) accidents to occurr.
As far as I am aware there is no mandatory requirement to report to the
authorities -( ie: the CAA, PFA and Europa), defects or faults that are
discovered during the course of routine maintenance. It is necessary to
enter details of maintenance work in the aircraft log but these are rarely
examined until someone has had an accident. I am not sure if PFA inspectors
are required to report back to the PFA on such issues.
The issue of TP6 sleeves disbonding had been known about for many years but
no one knows exactly how many tailplanes have been affected. A Europa owners
mod was produced but this never became mandatory - in any event it could not
be easily retrofitted to the many aircraft already built. We are only now
addressing the problems that this particular design fault/ oversight has
created.
The point I am making is that without proper facts we are all working in the
dark and it seems there is no formal mechanism for collating this data.
A recent point in case was the implementation of FSB-006. We were asked to
check for play in the tailplanes but there was no requirement to pass the
data back to Europa or the PFA - nor was there a specific requirement to
record the amount of play in the airframe logbook.
Kitplanes can never be as rigorously tested or evaluated as commercial
aircraft and even these reveal design flaws long after they have been deemed
fit for service. Surely it is doubly important then that design and
manufacturing defects are reported back to the manufacturer for them to
evaluate and decide whether changes should be made.
This is purely my view as a builder/ owner. Are there any PFA inspectors out
there who could comment. Maybe there is a system and I have been unaware of
it.
Im donning my hard hat now.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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Carl, I must agree with your comments about collating information. I was
very surprised and disappointed that when the recent FSBs were issued and I
failed my own aircraft due to pip pin holes that despite advising my
inspector and Francis Donaldson personally I am not aware that anyone was
actually collating the number or type of issues that were being thrown up.
As I do not come from an aeronautic background I did not know what the norm
was, but, certainly in my world of finance, we would have noted problems to
see if there was a common thread.
I would not wish to cast an extra work on to any one body but I do wonder if
there should be some form of database held (presumably by the PFA as the
Licensing Authority) to be able to show that any FSB or similar issue had
been resolved by any aircraft on the British Register. With 200 plus flying
Europas surely it would not be that big a job for someone to manage.
Flak jackets on!!
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
(Both pip pin holes cut out, top and bottom (see above) and ready to recast
fibreglass - for those wondering about the exercise it took about 1/2 hour
to do the cutting and shaping for each tailplane. The fibreglassing will
probably take a little longer.)
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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Hi! Carl
Interesting questions the replies to which will be eagerly awaited by
numerous people. I wish to make no comment however I recently asked the
forum a question and got no reply ....it is relevant to keeping the
tailplanes secured on the torque tube ...I repeat.....
I recently saw a prospective mod. suggestion which I felt to be really
good "out of the box" thinking ..... there was a spring lever through a
slot in the forward upper surface of the tailplane closeout area which
when opened by holding against the spring allowed the tail plane to push
the lever behind the drive plates and then sprung into place behind the
drive plates.
Personally I would also have the same lever/spring arrangement also in
an aft position making two pairs of levers all in addition to the
existing pip pins.
Anyone know the status of this mod ...has it been applied for ?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG 914 installed and ready for first "stoke up
"...about to start works on "the moved goal posts" prior to flight test
permit application.
--
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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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To All,
Maybe it's just my way of thinking or the American way of thinking, but why get any authorities invloved. The only thing that they do is stop people from flying with any possible reason at all. (MHO)
With the exception of accident causes and their corrections, why not simply use this forum, as we are presently doing, to keep a list of Mods that we determine as being of a matter pertaining to Europas. Police yourselves and avoid the official hassles.
Hard hat on.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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I no longer represent the Europa club or their committee but I wonder if
they would be willing to look into this. Perhaps Mike Gegory the club safety
officer would consider collating such data and and passing it on to Europa
aircraft or the PFA.
I would suggest an annual inspection form where owners can note any defects
or irregularities that can be recorded in the database and passed on to the
factory.
I appreciate that the Europa committee is a voluntary organisation and that
perhaps there is a cost element involved. I for one would be happy to
contribute towards the cost of such an exercise.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Europa Fault Reporting
| Quote: |
<steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Carl, I must agree with your comments about collating information. I was
very surprised and disappointed that when the recent FSBs were issued and
I failed my own aircraft due to pip pin holes that despite advising my
inspector and Francis Donaldson personally I am not aware that anyone was
actually collating the number or type of issues that were being thrown up.
As I do not come from an aeronautic background I did not know what the
norm was, but, certainly in my world of finance, we would have noted
problems to see if there was a common thread.
I would not wish to cast an extra work on to any one body but I do wonder
if there should be some form of database held (presumably by the PFA as
the Licensing Authority) to be able to show that any FSB or similar issue
had been resolved by any aircraft on the British Register. With 200 plus
flying Europas surely it would not be that big a job for someone to
manage.
Flak jackets on!!
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
(Both pip pin holes cut out, top and bottom (see above) and ready to
recast fibreglass - for those wondering about the exercise it took about
1/2 hour to do the cutting and shaping for each tailplane. The
fibreglassing will probably take a little longer.)
|
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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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I cant speak for the American authorities but as far as the PFA is concerned I have to disagree strongly with you.
Francis Donaldson and Andy Draper (the PFA engineering supremos) could have grounded all Europas pending the outcome of the AIIB investigation - they didnt. Instead they have worked tirelessly to implement changes that have enabled us to continue flying.
I dont wish to undermine the usefullness of this particular forum - the information shared here is invaluable.
As for keeping a list of mods, the Europa club already does this. There is no reason why the matter of defect reporting could not be undertaken by them as well.
I dont believe that policing ourselves would work. Someone has to take unpopular decisions regarding airworthiness and for my money it is still the PFA.
---
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willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: Europa Fault Reporting |
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Leaving aside our views on the regulators, it is worth reflecting on the financial implications if your insurance company decides you (or your heirs) are on your own to foot the bill after a big claim because you are deemed to have made a material change to the insured risk (eg an unapproved mod) without their consent. They don't need much of an excuse to wriggle out of paying up.
Stay safe
Willie Harrison
On 15 Jul 2007, at 22:15, Carl Pattinson wrote:
[quote]I cant speak for the American authorities but as far as the PFA is concerned I have to disagree strongly with you.
Francis Donaldson and Andy Draper (the PFA engineering supremos) could have grounded all Europas pending the outcome of the AIIB investigation - they didnt. Instead they have worked tirelessly to implement changes that have enabled us to continue flying.
I dont wish to undermine the usefullness of this particular forum - the information shared here is invaluable.
As for keeping a list of mods, the Europa club already does this. There is no reason why the matter of defect reporting could not be undertaken by them as well.
I dont believe that policing ourselves would work. Someone has to take unpopular decisions regarding airworthiness and for my money it is still the PFA.
-
[b]
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