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Ailerons 601XL

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CoJo331(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

A question for the list, the writer is about to began work on the ailerons 

my hang up is this; I want to build the piano hinged version since I did  not

convey this to ZAC when the 601XL  kit was ordered it defaulted to the  

hingless version.

My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for  

the piano

hinged option p/n 6PH1-1  or I can proceed with the aileron skin that  came 

with the

kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an an added 60  

inch 

length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times  two.

Help me out I can't see the forest for the trees. Thanks in  advance!

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with Chris 

Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L 

under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L channel, 

it is quick and easy with very little additional weight.



Clyde Barcus

601XL

---

nhulin(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

On Wed Feb 15 at 11:35 AM, CoJo331(at)aol.com wrote:



<snip> My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to

ZAC in exchange for  the piano hinged option p/n 6PH1-1  or

I can proceed with the aileron skin that  came with the kit and

modify it with an added weight penalty that being an added

60 inch length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows

of rivets times  two. <snip>



I know this is a touchy subject but one option you overlooked is to install

as provided. Lots of builders already have.



.neil

601XL/Corvair

Fuselage and stuff

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

OK guys.  Now you have me curious.  Why would you want piano hinge 

ailerons instead of the cool perfectly sealed ones in the standard 

design?  I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory 

demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to 

stall speed.  What more would you hope to gain with piano  hinges?



Paul

XL wings

 	  Quote: 	
		  I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type after discussing it with Chris

Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I cut the over lap down from 40mm to 20mm, used 025 L

under the over lap. The hinge goes between the top skin and the L channel,

it is quick and easy with very little additional weight.



Clyde Barcus

601XL


	


-

jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

Mr. CoJo,



Chris Heintz's hingeless/aileron gap seal design for the ailerons is ingenious to say the least.  The simplicity of design and very thorough testing, ie. 300,000 plus 180 degree deflections of the aluminium "hinge" with a 2 inch cut into the material yielded no fatigue in the cut.  I was told this by my building mentor who scratch built his 601 and has built 3 other planes before this last one.  He is a retired machinist and sheet metal expert at Xerox during his working years and he has had this very talk with Chris Heintz.  



I have been flying my CH601XL for 50 hours and the design as it stands makes for a simple, affordable, easily maintained and sound aircraft.  Remember the KISS acronym "keep it simple stu..." and Chris does, Hingeless is where it is at!  For what it is worth... just adding my 2 cents worth.



Jeff Paris

N196ZP Jabiru 3300 CH601XL





 --- On Wed 02/15,  < CoJo331(at)aol.com > wrote:

From:  [mailto: CoJo331(at)aol.com]

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:29:54 EST

Subject: Ailerons 601XL






A question for the list, the writer is about to began work on the ailerons 

my hang up is this; I want to build the piano hinged version since I did  not

convey this to ZAC when the 601XL  kit was ordered it defaulted to the  

hingless version.

My options are I can return aileron skin p/n 6W2-3 to ZAC in exchange for  

the piano

hinged option p/n 6PH1-1  or I can proceed with the aileron skin that  came 

with the

kit and modify it with an added weight penalty that being an an added 60  

inch 

length piece of .040 x 3/4 angle and 2 additional rows of rivets times  two.

Help me out I can't see the forest for the trees. Thanks in  advance!





page,

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

I was told by Gus at William Wynne's that the controls have a lighter touch 

at slow speed, which I prefer, they recently converted their plane to hinge 

type. Also, not everyone likes the idea of the unconventional hingeless 

method, someday I will quit flying and I will need to sell my plane and I 

want it to appeal to as many pilots as possible. It is really not a matter 

of which is better, it is just preference, a lot like tri gear versus 

conventional gear. There must be a fair amount of interest or ZAC would not 

have added it to the options after so many years.



Clyde Barcus

601X



Do Not Archive

---

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

It has always been an option for those non-believers.

---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

Yes,  same as the double joke option...   Is very easy and lots of space in the cabin with the central Yoke...  But some just dont believe before trying it.

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  701 912S



cgalley <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> wrote:

  



It has always been an option for those non-believers.

---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

Gary, I was convinced of the center "Y" stick the very first time I got

into a 601HD with dual sticks wearing shorts and the floor carpet

slipped out from under my feet ramming the stick up my shorts and FIRMLY

into crotch region. Then falling into seat and stick not going back that

far. IT was almost a week before I could walk normally again. That is

why I'm adamant on the Y stick. 



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

FWIW, I have 500 hrs on my 601HD with hingeless ailerons. I too asked Chris 

before building about it. He told me about the test they performed. I'm a 

A&P with 50 years in aircraft maintenance. From experience I know you will 

replace a worn out hinge before the 6061 will crack!



Jim Hoak



---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

I second the motion. The demo plane had no lack of aileron response and neither did it have a stiff feel in the least. That plane has just short of 1,000 hours on it and the paint was not cracked nor was the "hinge" skin. I was dubious about that feature before but I see no problem with it now. I recommend building it hingeless.... just my opinion of course,



Ed



 	  Quote: 	
		   OK guys.  Now you have me curious.


	


I tried flying with the hingeless design on the factory 

 	  Quote: 	
		   demonstrator and found full aileron authority all the way down to 

 stall speed.  What more would you hope to gain with piano  hinges?

 

 Paul

leogates(at)allvantage.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

I have the "hingless ailerons" and see no reason anyone would want piano 

hinges.



Just in the interest of accuracy - From Chris Hines' article:  "...and 

the deflection of the aileron a maximum of +/- 15 degrees...in a 

relatively short period, the cycles from the statistics could be applied 

to the deflection of the aileron for an aircraft utilization of 10,000 

flying hours. No crack (not even chipped paint) was noticed....After 

that, and just to know if by any bad luck it did crack, do I have to 

repair it in the field, or can I fly safely home and fix it in the shop? 

I cut a 1/8" notch at both inboard and outboard ends of the flex area 

with snips and restarted running the tests.



After the equivalent of another 3 hours, the notch had developed into a 

crack reaching on one end the first rivet, and on the other end the 

second rivet through the wing skin and rear channel. The test was then 

continued for the equivalent of another 10,000 flying hours with no 

further deterioration."



Leo Gates

N601Z



Jeffrey J Paris wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Mr. CoJo,



Chris Heintz's hingeless/aileron gap seal design for the ailerons is ingenious to say the least.  The simplicity of design and very thorough testing, ie. 300,000 plus 180 degree deflections of the aluminium "hinge" with a 2 inch cut into the material yielded no fatigue in the cut.  I was told this by my building mentor who scratch built his 601 and has built 3 other planes before this last one.  He is a retired machinist and sheet metal expert at Xerox during his working years and he has had this very talk with Chris Heintz.  



I have been flying my CH601XL for 50 hours and the design as it stands makes for a simple, affordable, easily maintained and sound aircraft.  Remember the KISS acronym "keep it simple stu..." and Chris does, Hingeless is where it is at!  For what it is worth... just adding my 2 cents worth.



Jeff Paris

N196ZP Jabiru 3300 CH601XL

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Ailerons 601XL

Another thought ... the aileron's are fairly fragile. If you ever dent or bend an aileron, it's easier to replace a piano hinge type.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

If the hinge stock has the same knuckle spacing.



---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Ailerons 601XL

Either way, it involves riveting a new aileron ... so you'll have to call in an IA to sign it off either way.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

If it is an experimental 601, any one can do the repair.  Only at yearly 

conditional inspection would you need an A&P to sign unless you have the 

limited repairman's.  Never need an IA, A&P only if needed to do he 

conditional.



Cy Galley

EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC

Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot

---

lgingell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Lake California Airpark 68CA

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Ailerons 601XL

Clyde (or anyone else that went from hingeless to piano hinges),



You said "I converted mine from hingeless to hinge type ..."  Can you give us any more info on the feel of things?



I've thought about this, since it might make the control harmony between pitch and roll a little better - Have you noticed this?



I also heard that it allows for quicker aileron input in rough air. I guess this could be good and bad.  Noticed any change between hinged and hingeless in this condition?



I think the ailerons are a little heavy with the hingeless design, but I've never flow hinged ones in a Zodiac, so it may be nothing to do with this. I'd certainly like to hear opinions though, since mine's not painted yet.



Cheers,

..lance

http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Ailerons 601XL

Lance:



I don't know personally because my plane isn't finished yet, however, Gus 

converted William Wynne's plane and he told me it was noticeable at low 

speed and at cruise he couldn't tell the difference. My reason for changing 

was personal preference and nothing to do with concern over failure with the 

hingeless aileron. Also, I believe that when it is time for me to quit 

flying and sell my plane the hinge type aileron will appeal to a lot more 

potential buyers.



Regards:



Clyde Barcus

601 XL Corvair Powered

---

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