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Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Mike

I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one 

single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto 

the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and 

stainless steel is not sensible. imho

I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though.

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>

 

 Nigel,

 

 Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right.  Mod 73 strikes me as a 

 very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design.  

 

 Mike

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Graham,



I think we will never know the full story on Williams aircraft.



New larger pins, clamp mods, TP6 'crutches'.  There has been a considerable 

amount of static generated in the last few years, all centred around the 

pitch control system.  I like your idea.  But let us not stop there, at the 

same time we should be upgrading the TP9 and TP12s.  The system around the 

tailplane torque tube needs a testosterone injection.



regards,



Mike

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike

 I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single 

 tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the 

 inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless 

 steel is not sensible. imho

 I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though.

 Graham

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Mike,

Fact is : There are tens of thousands of registered flying hours with Europas, without structural failures, although amateur built. Almost too good to be true. Fact is, that floppy tailplanes have been known to excist. To the point that mods have been made like the club mod, and the Harrison clamp. Fact is that this is the first time it lead to disaster.



So it's at least discussable under which catagory, plane structural or pilot error flying with loose, floppy tailplanes falls. 



We all have the reponsability to make sure we fly an airworthy plane. This discussion has moved the line from what we judge to be airworthy, because of the accident. It has not changed the hardware. But now that we know, more then ever, that we have to critical with what we take in the air. 



The what if question is pretty useless. The Tacoma bridge would not have been built if the flutter factor had been known.  Flutter is something that is difficult to calculate in advance. Has been, will be. 



All we have to do from now is make sure that our little planes remain in their tested, safe specifications. That is without tolerances. 



And PLease! 

Let us also be precise on other parts like ailerons and flaps, before also these fail because tolerances are over the limit. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Lets forget about the idea of using TP5 and TP6 to retain the tailplanes on 

to the torque tube. The problem with redesigning this is that its nigh on 

impossible to retro fit and many Europa owners simply dont have the 

expertise for such critical work.



Ivans idea behind the original tailplane attachent was to produce an easy 

and quick way of rigging the aircraft. Regrettably time has proved this 

design to be inadequate in terms of secuity.



There are several soultions proposed here which would require little if any 

invasive work to the tailplane structure (my pin/ bolt through the back of 

TP12 for example).



It might even be possible to build a small compartment behind the inboard 

rib/ plywood insert and pass a threaded bolt through the rib into the 

faceplate of TP12 (with a nut bonded to the back). Or a Zeuss ??? fastener. 

This would bolt the tailplane securely to the TP12 drive plates. Its an idea 

only and im not sure how feasible it would be.

---

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Here here Mike. Kate and I feel exactly the same. We are fortunate to have a

second aircraft to fly when we get the time (we are getting married next

weekend). Right now it's a much easier decision to get in the Comanche than

fly our beloved Europa. 

Is it not time for us to ASK E2004 to make a commitment to a redesign as I'm

sure it would be an excellent income stream for them and a great comfort to

many of us. As you say, the loss of two good friends due to structural

failure is just not acceptable. 



Alan



--

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Hi! Mike

Just for the record G-HOFC did NOT have my clamps fitted, (message from

Jos unintentionally could be construed that my clamps were implicated).



There may have been others but I believe (due to Williams posting last

August/September) he relied on the loctite fix. 



Did you see Bob Sheridans sprung lever fix to retain the tail planes

from behind the drive plates?



Your redesign suggestion would take an eternity and for me it is

imperative to remain current now.



Regards

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG awaiting inspector, oil and fuel for first stoke up

!



--

air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Graham and Mike, 

I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly  desirable. A special plier would be needed  for that pull test.  Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy  visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way.  Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever.  

  

Remi Guerner 

F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel,  912S, Airmaster, 487 hours   

  

  

  



From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)>

Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73



Mike

I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one 

single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto 

the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and 

stainless steel is not sensible. imho

I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though.

Graham



Mike Parkin wrote:

[quote] <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com (mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com)>

 

 Nigel,

 

 Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right.  Mod 73 strikes me as a 

 very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design.     [quote][b]

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Leaving aside our own views as owners about the integrity and  

resilience of the tail, another consideration is that the long term  

market value of our aircraft could be affected by the general  

perception amongst the aviation community at large about how  

effectively the problem has been solved. That might influence our  

willingness to invest in something better than a bandaid solution.



Willie





On 17 Jul 2007, at 06:29, Mike Parkin wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>



 Nigel,



 Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right.  Mod 73 strikes me  

 as a very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design.  What I would like  

 to see is a new set of tailplanes with a redesigned torque shaft  

 and retention system.  A 'belt and braces' system that will make  

 all this uncertainty go away.  We all love our little aeroplanes,  

 but it must be made more rugged down the back.  At the moment the  

 whole situation concerns me greatly and my confidence in the  

 integrity of the aircraft has taken a severe knock with the loss of  

 G-HOFC and our friends.  Accidents caused by pilot error I can live  

 with, but structural failure I cannot.  I want to be able to relax  

 when I fly my Europa.



 Europa 2004 can put on the list now for a new set of tailplanes if  

 the re-design can restore my confidence in my aircraft.

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Hi Bob



I'm sure Mike can speak for himself, but from my point of view a redesign

would not automatically infer the fleet should be grounded, just that a

better stronger version was being made available.

Also I would prefer to remain current in something that I felt was likely to

keep me current also (just my opinion).

I have seriously lost confidence in the Europa and whilst I won't

immediately stop flying it, I will always be wary of what can happen as we

all should be.



Alan



--

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Why don't we get a certified welder to weld TP12 to  TP04 to avoid any torsion stress on TP6 sleeve?

 Tim

 Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,

Fendalton,

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

  

 Ph :64 03 3515166

Mob:  021 0640221

  

 email:

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)

 [quote]   ---

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Rémi Guerner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for

  a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a

  flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single 

 pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As 

 there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is 

 fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6


	


This is not true. If the balls are not correctly released

from the side of the pip pin the button will have free

longitudinal movement without any springing effect.



 	  Quote: 	
		   pull test would be highly  desirable. A special plier 

 would be needed  for that pull test.  Alternatively, a 

 big recess on the underside of the tail plane would 

 allow an uneasy  visual inspection with a flashlight. 

 The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover

 I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device

 such as the spring loaded lever.


	


Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of

thousands of hours without any previous sign of any

serious problems in the elevator fixing.



The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said

nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the

primary cause of the accident.



Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a

problem that may not exist ?



Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in

the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final

solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and

complicated and expensive than the previous.



Richard Holder

G-OWWW High Cross

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Hear, Hear - I couldnt agree more.



What will prevent future accidents is vigilance and care, not knee jerk 

redesigns.



The current PFA solution may not be perfect but it is simply intended to 

bring ALL Europas up to a safe standad. The likelyhood is that 99% of 

Europas are safe anyway (but we just dont know).



I just dont see the need for mass paranoia. How many of us have checked th 

security of our TP6 joints recently? How many of us found faulty bonds. I 

suspect the answer is Zero. If I am wrong, Mod73 will fix that.



I agree that a more robust fix should be implemented in the future but IMHO 

this would be more about confidence in the Europa fleet then increasing the 

safety factor.



You cant get away from the fact that the Europa has shown itself to be a 

very safe aircraft over the last 10 years.



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS



Still Flying (the Europa !!!)



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of

 thousands of hours without any previous sign of any

 serious problems in the elevator fixing.



 The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said

 nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the

 primary cause of the accident.



 Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a

 problem that may not exist ?



 Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in

 the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final

 solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and

 complicated and expensive than the previous.



 Richard Holder

 G-OWWW High Cross

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a

 problem that may not exist ?




	


Richard,



I totally agree that when the AAIB report is published it may have nothing 

at all to do with TP6's and tailplane retention.



The subject pre-dates the accident.   But to suggest that there is not a 

problem in this area, is in my opinion a little off the mark.  If there were 

no problem then all the TP12 pin replacements and Bob's excellent clamp 

system would not have been necessary in the first place.



regards,



Mike

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Jeremy,

 Who wants to take it out? Is there likely to be  maintenance on TP4? If it was easy to take out now why don't we do that and  place the TP 14s for something better. The fact is it is very hard to take  it out now, is it not? If you had to then the spot weld could  be dismantled.

 Food for thought.

 Tim

  

  

 Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,

Fendalton,

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

  

 Ph :64 03 3515166

Mob:  021 0640221

  

 email:

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)

 [quote]   ---

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Carl,



Just because people do not conform with your own train of thought it does 

not mean that they are knee-jerking or the unfortunate sufferers of a Mass 

Paranoia.  All it means is they have a different opinion to you.  Those 

people, misguided as they may be, are entitled to their opinion..... as are 

you.



regards,



Mike



---

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

Mike,



My intention is not to criticise or label anyone but I feel there has been a 

lot of unwarranted negativity - IMHO !!!!. Perhaps my choice of words was 

unfortunate and if so I apologise.



What I am acutely aware of is this is a public forum and what we say here 

will find its way to the aviation community as a whole.  Although i'm not 

planning to sell my plane anytime soon I sincerely hope that when I do the 

Europa hasn't acquired a misguided reputation for being a dangerous 

aircraft. It wouldnt surprise me if there weren't some Europa builders out 

there wondering what the hell have I got myself into.



Despite the tragedy of the recent crash I personally havent lost confidence 

in the aircraft and will continue to fly it in the belief that it is as safe 

as we can make it.



Mods are a fact of aviation life - 73 for the Europa so far. But i'm sure 

this is comparable with many other aircraft.



Again, apologies to all if my comments have caused offence.



Regards,



Carl

---

nigel_graham(at)btconnect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73

It must a sign that the Europa is dearer to our hearts than we care to admit that any talk of changing an accepted design evokes such emotional and polarised reaction. (.....and I would rather experience this than an apathetic silence!)



As I see it there are two distinct issues:

1) Identifying and remedying the specific cause(s) of the G-HOFC incident.

2) Addressing the three design/assembly weaknesses in the Europa tail (yes 3 ....we have only discussed two so far, I'll save the third for later) that will guarantee a trustworthy and re-saleable aircraft.



None of us knows for certain the cause of the accident, but we have identified definite design weaknesses during the search,  TP5/TP6/pip-pin retention and secure locking of TP9/TP12.



It is not unreasonable or in any way "knee jerk" engineering for members the group to consider the problems and proffer ideas for solutions. This is healthy discussion and some pretty good ideas have emerged. In any other situation, this would be called "brainstorming" and would be considered good. It is the nature of the beast that you will rarely get everyone to agree.



The fact that the aircraft has flown for thousands of hours without incident is in no way an indication that there is no problem, (talk to anybody at Moreton-Thiakol about Space Shuttle propulsion systems) all it takes is the right (wrong) conditions.

The nature of failures so far is directly related to the pattern/frequency of aircraft use. High-time aircraft or those used on rough strips run an increased risk of something in the tail failing.



Ultimately, the regulating authorities will mandate changes considered "mission critical", and every individual has the freedom to invent his own solution and submit it to his regulator for approval.



Nigel



--

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