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Longer pip pins

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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

I need to buy longer pip pins for my elevators as a result

of Mod 73.



I have found a source and can have them back here in one

week if I buy the 2 inch long ones (1/4 inch longer than

standard). They will be about £20 or so.



Is there anyone who wants some ordered at the same time ?

I am happy to co-ordinate and re-distribute as required.

However I will be placing the order tomorrow (Thurs) at

noon so I need a quick response. Call me for further details.



In addition (unashamed plug) I will have four standard

1.75 inch pip pins available, (lightly used !) for which I

would accept offers !



Richard

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard F.W. Holder                      01279 842804 (POTS)

Bell House, Bell Lane,                   01279 842804 (fax)

Widford, Ware, Herts,                    07860 367423 (mobile)

SG12 8SH                    email : richard.holder(at)avnet.co.uk

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross

PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

Hi Richard



I am about to do the layups for Mod 73 tomorrow so will only find out

whether I will need the longer pins when I drill them out on Friday

morning. If you cannot wait until then to place the order put me down

for a pair just in case I need them. If you can wait I could email you

the results of my findings on Friday morning. If I do need them I could

pay you on Saturday (assuming the fly-in goes ahead then). The forecast

looks a bit marginal for Saturday at the moment. I am keen to run the

event on Saturday for several reasons but if it is marginal and Sunday

is better I might have to postpone. If this happens I will be

particularly sorry for you as I know that this is the first year that

you had a chance to come. The medium term forecast has been a bit

unreliable recently so let's hope it firms up for Saturday in the next

48hrs.



Regards



Nigel



--

danny shepherd

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 117
Location: north Wales, United Kingdom

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

Hi Richard,

                  Could you put me down for a pair, I will be finishing 

off Mod 73 tonight, and almost certain I will need longer pins.

Cheers Danny. G-c.e.r.i



Home 01745 583728

Work 01745 336583

Mob 07767 088833



Richard Holder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I need to buy longer pip pins for my elevators as a result

 of Mod 73.



 I have found a source and can have them back here in one

 week if I buy the 2 inch long ones (1/4 inch longer than

 standard). They will be about £20 or so.



 Is there anyone who wants some ordered at the same time ?

 I am happy to co-ordinate and re-distribute as required.

 However I will be placing the order tomorrow (Thurs) at

 noon so I need a quick response. Call me for further details.



 In addition (unashamed plug) I will have four standard

 1.75 inch pip pins available, (lightly used !) for which I

 would accept offers !



 Richard

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 



 Richard F.W. Holder                      01279 842804 (POTS)

 Bell House, Bell Lane,                   01279 842804 (fax)

 Widford, Ware, Herts,                    07860 367423 (mobile)

 SG12 8SH                    email : richard.holder(at)avnet.co.uk

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 



 Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross

 PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

I have had a number of replies and will be going ahead at

noon tomorrow.



Just to re-iterate - the pip pins will be £20 each, not

£20 the pair !



No takers yet for some or all of the 1.75 inch ones. Come

on guys who don't need longer ones, don't you need a spare

or two  ?



Richard

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard F.W. Holder                      01279 842804 (POTS)

Bell House, Bell Lane,                   01279 842804 (fax)

Widford, Ware, Herts,                    07860 367423 (mobile)

SG12 8SH                    email : richard.holder(at)avnet.co.uk

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross

PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Im no expert on pip pins but heres a  racing supplier that has a whole range of sizes.

  

 http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/FASTENERS-&-CATCHES-Pip-Pins/c51_243/index.html?osCsid=5de07d19bb840c10f3721bc43f13a9b8

  

 Is there any reason why these wouldnt be  suitable?

  

 1/4" x 2" ARE COMING IN AT £23 EACH. Not sure if  that includes VAT.

  

     [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: Longer pip pins

Hi! Richard.

Where are you measuring ....under the head to the balls ? Mine are 2"

overall but one and three quarters head to balls.

I will know hopefully by Thursday PM. I just need to drill through in

the morning I'll revert soonest.

Bob H G-PTAG

--

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

One thing that has been puzzling me over the last couple of days is why Mod 

73 should require longer pip pins than those originally supplied - 1.75"



My aircraft hasnt undergone the mod as yet and at present there is between 

2-3mm play when you tug on the pip pins. My understanding is that mod 73 

requires two plies of bid over the top of the TP6 sleeve and this should add 

no more than 1.5mm to the overall diameter so my pins should still fit.



I dont have the original build instructions to hand but the drawing in FSB 

006 shows the pip pin touching the top of TP6 (no layer of bid or flox 

underneath). Mine certainly has a hole drilled through the bid/ flox base 

such that there is no gap between the pip pin shoulder and the upper surface 

of TP6. I used a woodworkers drill bit, not a twist drill to make the hole.



The need for longer pins would suggest that some top pip pin recesses have 

an excessive amount of flox (or even foam !!!) at their base which is taking 

up unnecessary length.



It might be worth asking the Europa if it is acceptable to drill a hole 

through the top recess so that the shoulder of the pin sits flush with TP6 

( the drawing certainly suggests this is how it should be). I would have 

thought it perfectly acceptable, especially after Mod 73 has been done. This 

would eliminate the need to buy longer pins.



No doubt someone will come up with a good reason why this is a bad idea - 

but nothing ventured etc.



Carl Pattinson

G-LABS



---

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Carl

To answer your questions; I have completed Mod 73 and ordered new 2" pins - 

my reason is that I had non standard pip pin holes where the sides were not 

structural. I have therefore redone the holes but left the base of the 

original hole in place (2 circles of bid floxed to TP6.) My new pip pin 

recess then had 2 more plys of bid formed into cones and added to the top of 

TP6. Accordingly with the 4 plys of bid on the underneath, and 4 plys on the 

top I have added 0.1" of fibreglass )plus any build up of flox) to the 

outside diameter measurement of the TP6 tube. All this adds upto the pip 

pins being fractionally too short (probably about 0.05" to 0.15".

In answer to your second point about grinding away the base of the TP6 pip 

pin hole, I spoke to Andy regarding this and he confirmed that it would be 

in order but as long as the plys in the under pip pin hole were not touched.

I have taken the view that I would prefer extra belt and braces for my 

installation and have ordered the new pins accordingly. I had not 

appreciated that the pip pins did not have to contact either top or bottom 

surfaces as long as they do not migrate out of the holes.

So you can see that you may very well be OK with your installation and it is 

the rest of us who have added extra layers for no good reason.

I hope this concurs with other Europa owners views.

Regards

Steve Pitt

G-SMDH

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Actually Carl, there are four layers of bid at the point where the pip

pin exits, two small 1" square reinforcing patches then the two large

pieces. Also mine had two layers of bid in the top recess and I don't

want to disturb these as I think they provide extra retention for the

pins in case the TP6 disbonds. My pins are not quite long enough now. 



Richard Iddon G-RIXS



--

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Richard



That explains things and I can see why you wouldnt want to remove any layers 

of bid fron the upper recess. The standard design dosent seem to have much 

contact area at the base



Is there any reason why one couldnt cut away a small amount of the bottom 

bid layups using the tip of a twist drill - just enough to allow the pip to 

open. I cant see this compromising the strength of the bottom layups.



My pip pin holes are non standard being circular 4cm in diameter and 

consequently the base has a much greater area in contact with TP6.  This has 

turned out to be an unintentional advantage over the standard design - and 

comply with the minimum dimensions in PFA FSB 006.



Carl

G-LABS

---

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Forget what I just said - I just read the Mod 73 instructions again and it 

says you cant - not sure why though.

---

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: Longer Pip Pins

Carl Pattinson wrote :-



 	  Quote: 	
		   Is there any reason why one couldnt cut away a small amount of the bottom 

 bid layups using the tip of a twist drill - just enough to allow the pip 

 to open. I cant see this compromising the strength of the bottom layups.


	


Hello Carl,



I am sure someone else asked this very question a few days ago and AFAIK it 

wasn't taken up by anybody.  At the time, I couldn't see any reason myself 

and was hoping someone would oblige.  At this moment however, my mind must 

be a bit clearer because I think I can now see quite a good reason.



I am not all that knowledgeable on Mod 73 but I know it requires the lay-up 

of Bid onto the TP6 bush and the nearby rib.  If the hole that is drilled 

through the new lay-up is a neat fit around the Pip Pin shaft, any loads 

taken by the TP6 bush will be shared by



1  the bond between the lay-ups and the TP 6 bush

2  The new joggle the lay-up forms over the end of the TP 6 bush and

3  by the lay-up through to the rib courtesy of the firm fit of the Pip Pin 

in the new hole just drilled.



Should the hole be enlarged even slightly, (eg to allow expansion of the Pip 

Pin balls), Item 3 above would be negated.



It seems to me that Mod 73 attempts to provide a two belts and braces 

solution as opposed to just a belt and braces one.



I always think it is a pity with instructions when they say "don't do 

something" without explaining the reason therefore.  To less experienced 

persons, the reason can sometimes not be very obvious so if it is explained, 

not only is general knowledge gained but one will naturally have more 

respect for the prohibition and be less likely to ignore it.



Hope this makes sense.



Regards

Kingsley in Oz.

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

As a result of what at best can be described as a

"misunderstanding" I now have (or will have on Thursday) a

surplus of 2" pip pins 



Is there anyone who would like to buy two ?



As it is an unusual size I am planning to carry a spare on

board, is there anyone who would like an extra one for

that purpose ?



£20 each.



Richard

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard F.W. Holder                      01279 842804 (POTS)

Bell House, Bell Lane,                   01279 842804 (fax)

Widford, Ware, Herts,                    07860 367423 (mobile)

SG12 8SH                    email : richard.holder(at)avnet.co.uk

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross

PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jimnaylor.44(at)virgin.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Longer pip pins

Hi Richard,



I will take the two if they are still available, not sure if I will need 

them yet, but they will come in for spares!

Let me know the arrangements and I will send you my address and payment.

Regards



Jim Naylor



---

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