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Europa colours

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raimo.toivio(at)rwm-syste
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Europa colours

Rob,

  

 I am not going to encourage anybody to paint  their

 Europa´s undersides any colour but white. I still  well

 remember Manual´s words: all the Europas must be  white.

  

 I still have to point out the energy of the sun is  NOT

 reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is  why

 it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat 

 energy and nothing is reflecting out. White  surfaces are

 cool because they are reflecting out much  more.

  

 So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the  snow covered

 surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or  water w Europa floats!).

  

 In Sweden there has been 10 years  a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320

 and no composite problems at all. Register # is  SE-XOP (!). And like

 we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is  flying a total deep yellow Europa.

  

 I think - with other colour as white - it is better  to be even more careful. 

 Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and  some sacrifice.

 That is the fact all the women know. That is  all.

  

 "Keep your full matt black Europa in the  hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure"

  

 Raimo  

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robh(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Europa colours

Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes.  

   

In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word “reflected” where I should have used the technically correct term “emitted.”    

   

First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer.  You are correct that the sun’s energy is not reflected from a black surface.  However, a “black body” is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it.  Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy.  Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature.  Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened.  

   

Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa.  Here’s how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html  ---  

   

“Like every Lancair, the Legacy’s major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known.  

   

The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide.”  

   

Note that the Lancair’s composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components.  The “glass transition temperature” is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached.  For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature  For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength.  

   

Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998.    

   

   

     

Best regards,  

   

Rob Housman  

Irvine, California  

Europa XS Tri-Gear  

S/N A070  

Airframe complete  

  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio

 Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa colours  

  

  

     

Rob,  

    

   

    

I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their  

    

Europa´s undersides any colour but white. I still well  

    

remember Manual´s words: all the Europas must be white.  

    

   

    

I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT  

    

reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why  

    

it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat   

    

energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are  

    

cool because they are reflecting out much more.  

    

   

    

So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered  

    

surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!).  

    

   

    

In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320  

    

and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like  

    

we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa.  

    

   

    

I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful.   

    

Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice.  

    

That is the fact all the women know. That is all.  

    

   

    

"Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure"  

    

   

    

Raimo    

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Rob Housman (robh(at)hyperion-ef.com)   

    

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM  

    

Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules  

    

   

  

Mike –  

   

In re: dark paint  

   

Don’t even think about it.  Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure.  Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface.  Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don’t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot.  

     

Best regards,  

   

Rob Housman  

Irvine, California  

Europa XS Tri-Gear  

S/N A070  

Airframe complete  

  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa rules  

  

  

     

Raimo,  

    

   

    

Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country.  

    

   

    

Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this?  

    

   

    

   

    

Mike Duane A207A

 Redding, California

 XS Conventional Gear

 Jabiru 3300 

 Sensenich R64Z N

 Ground Adjustable Prop  

  

           

  

  

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.  

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 	
[b]

jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Europa colours

Anyone remember the  factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly?  After two or so years in  the US sun that plane needed repairs to the front fuselage as the engine  weight was sagging the footwell area of the plane while it was hot.   Needless to say after it was reapaired it was repainted white.  As Rob  H said even yellow can get a bit warmer that white, and I've sprayed one yellow  myself. 

 Paint em' white, or  fly em' at night!

  

  Jim  T.

 [quote]   

   --

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Europa colours

This is very correct Jim. I have light tan or gold accents on N128LJ.  

It is a metallic light gold so I figured it to be a very acceptable  

reflective / emitted color.  On a sunny day the difference to the touch  

is the difference between very warm and neutral to the touch.  Even in  

the winter months on a sunny day reach out and touch a black car then a  

white and you'll know the color to paint your plane. Keep it white and  

keep it strong.

Regards,



Jeff R.

On Jul 20, 2007, at 10:55 AM, James wrote:



[quote] Anyone remember the factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly?   

 After two or so years in the US sun that plane needed repairs to the  

 front fuselage as the engine weight was sagging the footwell area of  

 the plane while it was hot.  Needless to say after it was reapaired it  

 was repainted white.  As Rob H said even yellow can get a bit warmer  

 that white, and I've sprayed one yellow myself.

 Paint em' white, or fly em' at night!

  

  Jim T.

> --

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: Europa colours

Hi Rob

  

 As I wrote

  

 "I am not going to  encourage anybody to paint their  

Europa´s undersides  any colour but white. I still well

  

remember Manual´s  words: all the Europas must be white." 

  

and 

  

"I think - with other  colour as white - it is better to be even more careful.  " 

  

and 

  

"Keep your full matt  black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if  

you wanna be  absolutely sure" 

  

Anyway -  I called to my friend Jukka Paavolainen, who has build 

and still flies his  Lancair 320 OH-XJP. He said his Lancair is 

just on ordinary  glasfibre - epox system and definetely not baked 

in high temparatures.  Only the cowlings - because of the engine and 

exhaust heat -  has been  made by more heat resistant phenolresins. 

  

His Lancair kit is  year model 1990 and so is my earlier example SE-XOP, 

which is overall  deepred and beautiful Swedish Lancair 320. 

  

I believe newer  models are as you described made by adanced composite materials. 

  

You wrote 

  

"  Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be  re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color  but white it will absorb too much energy. " 

  

and I still think you are wrong. I am going to talk to one  thermodynamist, 

who works as a doctor in Tampere Univercity. Maybe he can make  this 

thing clear. I promise to come back and tell what he know. Also if  I am wrong... 

  

Fly it - do not melt it... 

Raimo



 [quote]   ---

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: Europa colours

I only fly at night......    

Gert



http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpg





Den 23/07/2007 kl. 20.02 skrev Raimo Toivio:

[quote]Hi Rob

 

As I wrote

 

"I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their

Europa´s undersides any colour but white. I still well



remember Manual´s words: all the Europas must be white." 



and 



"I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. " 



and 



"Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if

you wanna be absolutely sure" 



Anyway - I called to my friend Jukka Paavolainen, who has build

and still flies his Lancair 320 OH-XJP. He said his Lancair is

just on ordinary glasfibre - epox system and definetely not baked

in high temparatures. Only the cowlings - because of the engine and

exhaust heat - has been made by more heat resistant phenolresins. 



His Lancair kit is year model 1990 and so is my earlier example SE-XOP,

which is overall deepred and beautiful Swedish Lancair 320. 



I believe newer models are as you described made by adanced composite materials. 



You wrote 



" Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. " 



and I still think you are wrong. I am going to talk to one thermodynamist,

who works as a doctor in Tampere Univercity. Maybe he can make this

thing clear. I promise to come back and tell what he know. Also if I am wrong... 



Fly it - do not melt it...

Raimo



[quote]---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Europa colours

Gert, so beautiful is your plane!

  

 I think we once met in Barkaby.

 Anyway - your Europa has been one of my inspiring examples  during the years.

 But it is obvious - you are living in a country of great  design like Bang&Olufsen.

 But how dare you make a dark bottom, bad boy you are!

 Any difficulties /delaminations?

 Let me guess: not at all.

  

 All the others:

  

 By the way, what is the temp inside the cowlings  when

 taxiing long in a hot day? There, near by the critical  areas.

 I painted all the inside glass surfaces white and have  a

 heat reflecting & noise insulating firewall  coating.

  

 Moro, Raimo

  

 [quote]   ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: Europa colours

Do you know the gliders color? They know  why!

 Karel Vranken  # 447 F-PKRL

 [quote]   ---

thomas(at)scherer.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: Europa colours

my Europa is half blue and shoes no signs of melting after ten years of service. She has been parked and flown in hot cuntries. 

  

<Thomas, N81EU>



----Original Message----

From: karelvranken(at)hotmail.com

Date: Jul 24, 2007 2:38 

To: 

Subj: Re: Europa colours



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 Karel Vranken  # 447 F-PKRL

 [quote] ---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: Europa colours

Wau, an another bad boy again!

  

 In fact I found few days ago nice pics of  N81EU

 and it was parked in Utah Salt Lake City may I  guess.

 I think it is one of the hottiest place in the world. And  fastest!

  

 I noticed your EuropaÂ´s sides also have been painted  blue,

 not only down side.

  

 Maybe you fly so much that it has no time enough to  melt...

  

 Karel: people do things many times just because it is just  a "habit".

 Like painting gliders only white. Some times an individual  decides

 to do something other way. It can be a disaster or  success. You know.

  

 They call it experimental.

  

 Thanks, Raimo

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Europa colours

You're lucky, but  how long to you want to tempt fate?  

  

  Jim  T.

 [quote]   

   --

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Europa colours

Raimo,

 The only one glider with another color than white  was a Finnish Pik 20 B in the World Championships in Waikiri (Australia).  It was light yellow.

 Seems that in Suomi they experiment to reinvent the  wheel even if only to attract attention. Differences in temperature for the same  structure is not desirable for glass constructions. But I understand that  you want to keep the belly warm.

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken, # 447 F-PKRL.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: Europa colours

Dear Karel,

  

 Yes in Suomi we like to reinvent things and make them  better.

 Like a phone and the result is history like  www.nokia.com

  

 (and it is not created to attract attention only you  know!).

  

 Despite that I have to mention Thomas S & Co  are not Finnish.

 There are also some other people on the ball thinking by  their own brains.

  

 By the way you have on your Europa sides golden strips  pointing straight to the sun.

 What a hot spot! 

  

 ArenÂ´t you worried one day the fuselage joint will be melt  and you

 have a canoe stage again during your flight      

  

 Sorry I forgot those little dark strips, pics,  stars, letters, numbers etc mean nothing...

  

 Kind Regards, Raimo

 =================

 Raimo M W Toivio

  

 OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The  Year 

OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007

OH-BLL Beechcraft  C45, w radial engines (grounded)

  

 37500  Lempaala

Finland

tel + 358 3 3753  777

fax + 358 3 3753 100

gsm + 358 40 590 1450

  

 raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)

www.rwm.fi



  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Europa colours

Anyone that has a  dark color on their plane as a secondary color and not a stripe, can joke  all they want.  I saw what went into fixing N914XS and I can tell you it  wasn't funny knowing I had been flying acro in an airplane that could have at  the least had the power plant hanging by half the firewall halfway thru a loop,  or at the worst losing the firewall forward.   You can't reinvent TG.   But you CAN reflow epoxy at elevated temps.  At about 200F aeropoxy WILL  start to soften.  You CAN remove redux with a hairdryer.  And a dark  painted composite plane WILL deform sooner or  later.  

  If you think  it works on you're aircraft that's fine, but don't go recommending it to  somebody else. 

 If you cant keep  you're hand on it in the sun then it's too hot.  

 I can't believe so  many are willing to kick the devil in the gonads.

  

  Jim T.   

 [quote]   

   --

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: Europa colours

Dear Jim,

  

 as I have stated earlier

 painting dark (underside only)

 is only my decision and it is valid

 here in Scandinavian, quite near

 Polar Circle. When not in airborne,

 it is in hangar - not under the sun.

  

 I wish pure white colour makes you happy

 in every climate in every temperature.

 It must be like a prayer - with it you can

 do what ever you like - w/o own judgement.

  

 I have a headache - you have kicked my 

 head to the hot  asshole.

  

 Raimo, still the beauty is first of all

  

 attached a pic of my "dark & dangerous"  Europa

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: Europa colours

Raimo,  

   

That sure is a beautiful looking bird, you must be proud. Up there near the polar circle, you might need that darkness to keep the belly from getting too cold!  

   

Regards,  

Greg  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio

 Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:03 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa colours  

  

     

Dear Jim,  

    

   

    

as I have stated earlier  

    

painting dark (underside only)  

    

is only my decision and it is valid  

    

here in Scandinavian, quite near  

    

Polar Circle. When not in airborne,  

    

it is in hangar - not under the sun.  

    

   

    

I wish pure white colour makes you happy  

    

in every climate in every temperature.  

    

It must be like a prayer - with it you can  

    

do what ever you like - w/o own judgement.  

    

   

    

I have a headache - you have kicked my   

    

head to the hot asshole.  

    

   

    

Raimo, still the beauty is first of all  

    

   

    

attached a pic of my "dark & dangerous" Europa  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

  [quote]    

---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: Europa colours

Raimo,

 The golden color I choose for the striping is a  special effect color. It reflects the heat. Though it is expensif, the color and  application was a 1000 Euro cost. And gold is nearly yellow what after white is  the second choise. Better than big black letters.

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken

 [quote]   ---

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