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steve2(at)sover.net
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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Gang,
I know in THEORY that an aft loading affects cruise and stall speeds, and the book answer as to why.
Has anyone messed around with loading configurations and seen a real world difference? How much?
Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency.
Was it cmd Gordon that mentioned something about ballast a couple threads back? What's the history on that?
Steve
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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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In a message dated 27-Jul-07 06:04:40 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2(at)sover.net writes:
| Quote: | | Seing as how we're well to the front, and could go out of the envelope in certain configurations, I'm curious as to whether ballasting could actually pay off by increased efficiency. |
As for the history of ballasting, as I understand it, when enhancements came about such as the Shrike nose, 3 blade props and pilot doors, the added weight brought the C.G. too far forward.
The factory began placing lead plates on the aft tail stringers, and that's what's been done with pre-Shrike models when noses, doors and panel mount avionics were put on as after market mods.
There is the anecdotal tale of Mr. RPM doing a demo for a flying missionary group who were interested in the MR. RPM conversion of the AC-680-FL(P). They had a high altitude / short field requirement that had to be demonstrated so MR. RPM did the trials at Big Bear Lake ... and loaded for maximum aft C.G. to achieve the performance needed.
Wing Commander Gordon
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steve2(at)sover.net
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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Do the Shrikes then come out of the factory with lead ballast?
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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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In a message dated 27-Jul-07 11:06:37 Pacific Daylight Time, steve2(at)sover.net writes:
| Quote: | | Do the Shrikes then come out of the factory with lead ballast? |
To my knowledge, yes.
WCG
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steve2(at)sover.net
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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David,
I was wondering about you guys. You've got the camera installation and a Colemill conversion, if I remember right. Any idea how much lead, and where it was put?
As for the SPAM-LOW, maybe its the list's way of telling me to quit sending so many messages. (I'm almost done, honest.)
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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The tailcone comes off, and there it sits... appx. 80lbs I think...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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Good Morning Robert,
Since you are pondering such a "weighty" subject, are you aware that someone many years ago managed to get a movable weight approved for use in a Cessna 140?
The weight was on a rail and could be cranked back and forth via a cable and crank affair.
The idea was that it could be placed all the way in the rear to allow landings on muddy fields or with heavy brake use without nosing over quite as easily.
Never seemed like a thing of much use or practicality to me, but I wonder if it might not be useful for those situations where extreme range or high speed is important to you Commander drivers?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 7/27/2007 1:22:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Robert writes:
| Quote: |
We are currently “Weighing” the pro’s/con’s of the CG location on N414C when we finally get her on the scales. So much equipment came out of the empennage mounted racks that the CG has likely come forward some. This is a good thing for single engine control- but a bad thing for cruise speeds…. This airplane already had 70lbs of lead ballast weight bolted to the very tip of the tail….
Robert Randazzo
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| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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kamala(at)MSN.COM
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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you might check with gary (at) commander aero. i know they have had experience with updating equipment in the commander line and in doing so delt with the w & b problems presented by that action. mason
[quote] From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: fore and aft loading vs. performance
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Good Morning Robert,
Since you are pondering such a "weighty" subject, are you aware that someone many years ago managed to get a movable weight approved for use in a Cessna 140?
The weight was on a rail and could be cranked back and forth via a cable and crank affair.
The idea was that it could be placed all the way in the rear to allow landings on muddy fields or with heavy brake use without nosing over quite as easily.
Never seemed like a thing of much use or practicality to me, but I wonder if it might not be useful for those situations where extreme range or high speed is important to you Commander drivers?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 7/27/2007 1:22:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Robert writes:
| Quote: |
We are currently Weighing the pros/cons of the CG location on N414C when we finally get her on the scales. So much equipment came out of the empennage mounted racks that the CG has likely come forward some. This is a good thing for single engine control- but a bad thing for cruise speeds. This airplane already had 70lbs of lead ballast weight bolted to the very tip of the tail.
Robert Randazzo
|
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[b]
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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Bob-
I’m not sure I’d want such a rig on a commander….
Can you imagine how many times you’d rotate and wonder, “hmmmm… I wonder if I remembered to latch that thing in place.”
KLUNK trim trim trim….
Apparently I forgot again…
Robert Randazzo
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:15 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: fore and aft loading vs. performance
Good Morning Robert,
Since you are pondering such a "weighty" subject, are you aware that someone many years ago managed to get a movable weight approved for use in a Cessna 140?
The weight was on a rail and could be cranked back and forth via a cable and crank affair.
The idea was that it could be placed all the way in the rear to allow landings on muddy fields or with heavy brake use without nosing over quite as easily.
Never seemed like a thing of much use or practicality to me, but I wonder if it might not be useful for those situations where extreme range or high speed is important to you Commander drivers?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 7/27/2007 1:22:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Robert writes:
| Quote: |
We are currently “Weighing” the pro’s/con’s of the CG location on N414C when we finally get her on the scales. So much equipment came out of the empennage mounted racks that the CG has likely come forward some. This is a good thing for single engine control- but a bad thing for cruise speeds…. This airplane already had 70lbs of lead ballast weight bolted to the very tip of the tail….
Robert Randazzo
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| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
01234
__________ NOD32 2430 (20070731) Information __________
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: fore and aft loading vs. performance |
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In a message dated 8/2/2007 1:23:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com writes:
| Quote: |
Bob-
I’m not sure I’d want such a rig on a commander….
Can you imagine how many times you’d rotate and wonder, “hmmmm… I wonder if I remembered to latch that thing in place.”
KLUNK trim trim trim….
Apparently I forgot again…
Robert Randazzo |
Hey! I'm with you. I never had one in a 140 either.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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