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Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

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david.corbett5(at)btinter
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Please see below Francis Donaldson’s e-mail to Ted Gladstone, as advised in my e-mail to the forum a few minutes ago.  

   

In the interest of space, I have deleted Alan Simmons’ agreement to the issue of this e-mail.  

   

David  

       

  

From: Francis Donaldson [mailto:francis.donaldson(at)pfa.org.uk] 

 Sent: 27 July 2007 10:33

 To: Simmons, Alan

 Cc: Andy Draper

 Subject: RE: Europa statement  

Dear Alan  

   

Following our discussion I have decided not to issue a PFA statement about the Europa accident, for the reasons you suggested. However instead I would like your agreement to sending the e-mail below to individuals who e-mail us speculating about the accident sequence.  Is this OK ?  

   

Francis Donaldson  

   

    

   

Dear Ted  

   

Thanks for the copy e-mail.  The reason why the rear wing pin pulled out of the right wing was almost certainly because the construction of the hard point in the root rib was defective, the laminations of the plate were staggered so that the threaded hole was not through the middle of the metal plates as designed. It was near the edge of the first one and penetrating the edge of the underneath ones, ie only the first laminate would have been able to carry significant load.  This is why the outer laminate ripped out. I think that release of the rear wing attachment allowed the right wing to swing forward and split the right wing spar, causing the right wing to break up and tearing the pins out retaining the other wing in the process.  The massive jerk caused by the wing failure would explain what moved the right tailplane off its pitch pins and allow it to flutter and depart, and the left tailplane could have fluttered and then departed because in moving outboard, the right tailplane had dragged the anti-balance tab operating tee-bar off the pin on the left tailplane’s anti-balance tab.     

   

Had the main wing pins failed, there would not have been the massive damage to the right wing which occurred, as failure of the pin would immediately off-load the wings.  

   

Both crew were found with the cockpit wreckage, there was no question of either falling out of the aircraft in flight.     

   

We are taking what we see as appropriate steps to allow the Europa fleet to carry on flying, with a acceptable level of safety.  If we wait for the AAIB report to be published in full, we would have to ground the fleet meanwhile, which could last many months.     

   

The work on the root pin attachment does not involve a huge amount of work or a massive hole in the skin, Andy has managed to devise a keyhole surgery approach. It has been tried on a sample Europa and went OK.   

   

Please note that the above is our present line of thought about the accident sequence but is not yet definitive, that will be the prerogative of the AAIB and their final report.  There is further testing to be done to test the theory, which we are helping AAIB to prepare.  Please do not broadcast the above on the Europa net or elsewhere as it would not be appropriate to promulgate the present theory in advance of the AAIB report.   

   

Best regards  

   

 Francis Donaldson  

        [quote][b]

jodel(at)nildram.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Francis’s e-mail seems to suggest the opposite sequence of events to that given by the AAIB in S3/2007.  

   

If the tailplane moved as a result of the wing detachment is it known for certain that the TP6 was already detached or did the wing cause that too?  

   

Have we all just modified our aircraft for no reason?????  

   

Simon  

       

  

From: Francis Donaldson [mailto:francis.donaldson(at)pfa.org.uk] 

 Sent: 27 July 2007 10:33

 To: Simmons, Alan

 Cc: Andy Draper

 Subject: RE: Europa statement  

Dear Alan  

   

Following our discussion I have decided not to issue a PFA statement about the Europa accident, for the reasons you suggested. However instead I would like your agreement to sending the e-mail below to individuals who e-mail us speculating about the accident sequence.  Is this OK ?  

   

Francis Donaldson  

   

    

   

Dear Ted  

   

Thanks for the copy e-mail.  The reason why the rear wing pin pulled out of the right wing was almost certainly because the construction of the hard point in the root rib was defective, the laminations of the plate were staggered so that the threaded hole was not through the middle of the metal plates as designed. It was near the edge of the first one and penetrating the edge of the underneath ones, ie only the first laminate would have been able to carry significant load.  This is why the outer laminate ripped out. I think that release of the rear wing attachment allowed the right wing to swing forward and split the right wing spar, causing the right wing to break up and tearing the pins out retaining the other wing in the process.  The massive jerk caused by the wing failure would explain what moved the right tailplane off its pitch pins and allow it to flutter and depart, and the left tailplane could have fluttered and then departed because in moving outboard, the right tailplane had dragged the anti-balance tab operating tee-bar off the pin on the left tailplane’s anti-balance tab.     

   

Had the main wing pins failed, there would not have been the massive damage to the right wing which occurred, as failure of the pin would immediately off-load the wings.  

   

Both crew were found with the cockpit wreckage, there was no question of either falling out of the aircraft in flight.     

   

We are taking what we see as appropriate steps to allow the Europa fleet to carry on flying, with a acceptable level of safety.  If we wait for the AAIB report to be published in full, we would have to ground the fleet meanwhile, which could last many months.     

   

The work on the root pin attachment does not involve a huge amount of work or a massive hole in the skin, Andy has managed to devise a keyhole surgery approach. It has been tried on a sample Europa and went OK.   

   

Please note that the above is our present line of thought about the accident sequence but is not yet definitive, that will be the prerogative of the AAIB and their final report.  There is further testing to be done to test the theory, which we are helping AAIB to prepare.  Please do not broadcast the above on the Europa net or elsewhere as it would not be appropriate to promulgate the present theory in advance of the AAIB report.   

   

Best regards  

   

 Francis Donaldson   	  Quote: 	
		   	
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		   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List 	
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       [quote][b]

Finklea

Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Location: SC

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

How many Europa deaths in how many months? 8 in 18 mos... I am concerned!!

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Dear "Finklea"Would it be to much to ask you to send comments like that to "The Sun" or similar press representatives - me and the rest of the Europa community have not got time to that sort of "science".

Wish you a happy Sunday.

Regards Gert / OY-GDS

Den 29/07/2007 kl. 3.11 skrev Finklea:

[quote]

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Finklea" <finklea(at)bellsouth.net (finklea(at)bellsouth.net)> 



 

How many Europa deaths in how many months? 8 in 18 mos... I am concerned!! [b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

No sign off, so no name to answer:

No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even before they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pilots died. There must be something terribly wrong.  

In reality investigations show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall are pilot related and could be fatal. 

In any plane. 

The last accident is still under investigation. 

The nice thing with numbers is that you can do so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Later in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only meaning if we can stick some common factor to them. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

The RV design is very suspect as well.  We had two of them run out of fuel on takeoff,

 and one stall spin to final this year already in my area.  5 fatal.  Must be a bad design.

  

                                             Glenn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

 From: josok-e(at)ukolo.fi

 Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:00:50 +0300

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>

 

 No sign off, so no name to answer:

 No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even before they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pilots died. There must be something terribly wrong. 

 In reality investigations show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall are pilot related and could be fatal. 

 In any plane. 

 The last accident is still under investigation. 

 The nice thing with numbers is that you can do so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Later in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only meaning if we can stick some common factor to them. 

 

 Regards,

 

 Jos Okhuijsen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org

 ======

 

 

 


	


See what you’re getting into…before you go there. Check it out!  [quote][b]

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Im getting kinda pissed off with some of the mindless (and  dangerous) comments that certain individuals seem to make  - but then you  have the right to make them (just as I have the right to get pissed  off).

  

 Designers do not have absolute control over how their  designs are built - BUILDERS do !

  

 When your car (or plane) runs out of gas is it the  designers fault - NO its yours !!!

  

 When your plane spins into the ground because you are a  stupid pilot is it the designers fault - NO its the pilots fault.

  

 Bad design - where's your evidence ?

  

 I hope you don't own a Europa (or an RV) because by the  time you have finished telling the world how badly designed they are, they  wont be worth bugger all.

  

 Rant over.

  

 PS: My comments ar in no way directed towards Williams  tragic demise. 

 The fact is we dont know what happened so should refrain  from speculating till we do (or till the AAIB makes its findings  known)

 [quote]   ---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Hi Folks,



Lets take it easy. It's usually me who gets over exited. Of course there is a lot of nuisence in these events, but it's not a reason to start beating each other. 



That parts made to specification in small quanteties on short notice are relative expensive might be clear. Full fuel is also expensive, and that is more then a one off event. 



[quote]The fact is we dont know what happened so should refrain from speculating till we do (or till the AAIB makes its findings known) 

[quote] -----Is the very important thing to remember.  Sofar everything, also the remedies of the PFA are based on more or less educated guessing. My bet is elsewhere. 



Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

nielskock(at)get2net.dk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Helt enig, Gert. Nu har han vist også fået tørt  på!

 Hilsen,

 Niels

 [quote]   ---

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Takker.Hilsen Gert





Den 29/07/2007 kl. 17.56 skrev Niels Kock:

[quote]Helt enig, Gert. Nu har han vist også fået tørt på!

Hilsen,

Niels

[quote]---

Finklea

Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Location: SC

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Forum members,

Sorry to "offend" you with what was considered a POINTLESS COMMENT. Actually, I should have elaborated more than just saying "I am concerned"    My brother was the passenger killed in Ken Hill's N214KS Europa XS that crashed on June 16 in Livermore. He too was a pilot in Viet Nam logging thousands of wartime hours.I have friends looking to build Europas or seaplane kits using the same engines but are also concerned about loss of power issues with this specific engine. I'm sorry if I spoke out of line...

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Yeah, my  Comanche also had the bad habit of quitting on takeoff when it didn't have any  fuel in it... must be a common design fault. - Paul

 [quote]   --

Finklea

Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Location: SC

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue!

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Hi Finklea,



My condolences with the loss of your brother. 

And still, you are out of line, because you can not simply add up accidents. 



And you do it again, your second message starts about the engine.There are no known problems with the engine or the airframe. As a matter of fact, both have an excellent safety record. But if there is no fuel going to the engine, because there is none, or the flow is blocked, it will stop. That does not have to mean disaster, because you can land an airplane like the Europa perfectly without a running engine. Your brother was not killed because of a not running engine, he was killed because the pilot tried to return to the runway, something that is a no-no. Statistically it is the very experienced pilot who tries anyhow, killing himself and others. The other tragic accidents that have happened have again different causes, and again nothing to do with engine or airframe. Maybe, maybe the last one is airframe related, but we don't know yet. 



Finklea, please if you do not understand these things ask, and do not start throwing accusations around. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Well, i give up. You can't read or don't understand English. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

My condolences for your loss.  I know it's hard to not blame whatever 

presents itself, but consider this.  All the gas in the world won't help 

if it doesn't get to the engine and there are lots of things that can go 

wrong, including pilot error, that can cause the gas to not get to the 

engine.  There are millions of engines, of this type, in service, mine 

being one of them.  They work as advertised, if maintained properly...



Jeff - Baby Blue

306 hrs



Finklea wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126190#126190

Finklea

Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Location: SC

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Jos,

What was my accusation? Fact, Rotax has had loss of power issues that have been addressed( and some corrected) in the past. I have a close friend that is a Vice Chairman of the NTSB and he is following this closely and providing some vital information.  I am not saying that this aircraft (frame or engine) is mal-designed, only that there may be some issues that for YOUR sake that need attention before others are prompted to make that critical last second low altitude decision, right or wrong. I hope that the cause of the loss of power and subsequent turnback is found before anyone else is put into that situation.



 Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, i give up. You can't read or don't understand English. 



Regards, 



Jos Okhuijsen 

Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org



 

 Jos, 

Why do you feel the need to insult me? I am not attacking you OR your airplane, simply concerned about the results of my research. Remember, I am the one at loss here, not you at least yet. I do understand English and can read! I just hope that I dont have to use those skills to read your obituary someday due to a small engine or airframe fault that went uncorrected because you were too arragant to admit that problems can exist .Do you have a vested interest in Rotax or Europa? Your attitude sure lends itself to such. I too feel that pilot error led to this crash but the turnback WAS precipitated by a mechanical malfunction of some sort. This I am sure! 

Jeff,  thanks for your unqualified condolences.

I dont feel the need to cast blame here. Ken had flown this plane for 2+ years and as per all accounts was a "10" BUILD and maintained to a T. Yes, stuff happens but there is always a reason for the" stuff" and if that reason can be found and corrected, there is little reason for the same stuff to happen again.



Finklea

rowil(at)clara.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

At 2007-07-29 12:36 -0700 Finklea wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much 

to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that 

erupted upon impact


	


Finklea - I am very sad to hear that an experienced pilot was 

persuaded to be aboard an aircraft with such a dangerous-sounding 

fuel arrangment.



The likelihood of surviving a low-level stall-spin incident is low at 

the best of times; I would not care to stack the odds against myself 

by adding a potential bomb to my baggage.



Was the Evinrude tank restrained & plumbed-in in a way that minimised 

any possibility of fuel spillage on impact? I've not looked at the 

factory-supplied long range tank, but I'm sure it addresses these 

concerns. If you choose a different route to provide more fuel on 

board, you're conducting an experiment, the result of which, by 

definition, is unknown.



What was the gross weight & CG of the aircraft at departure? Two 

adults (how heavy?) plus the extra fuel tank(s) might have put it 

over-gross or out of balance; maybe there was some baggage aboard 

too. Did the Pilot-in-Command conduct a weight and balance 

calculation before departure? Did the PiC review the options for 

dealing with engine-failure-after-takeoff before depature?



I've just be re-validating my licence in C152s (a factory-built type 

with a fairly good safety record); much of the dual time was spent, 

not seeing if I could keep the dirty side down or find some distant 

waypoint, but on exploring my ability (a) to make sure the aircraft 

and its systems were fit for flight before committing to takeoff, and 

(b) to make decisions that would contribute to my survival in the 

event of unexpected failures. It was not assumed that this simple and 

basically safe type would refuse to bite if the pilot took his eye 

off the ball, and the same is true of all aircraft types.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  PFA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 760 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment

Finklea,



I am sorry indeed about your brother and Ken.

I am always grateful for information which allows me to improve

flight safety! I imagine your friend at the NTSB can not say anything now

we do not already know about that fateful incident.



As has already been mentioned here, the Rotax engine is not

demonstrably better or worse in its safety design than other aviation 

engines. Its modern high performance alloys are offset a bit by the dual

carburetor setup which allows a desynchrony failure mode.



A full tank of gas does not help if it is switched off, or if junk clogs the

filter or the carbs, or if the mechanical fuel pump fails, or if the airbox

equalization tubes dislodge, etc, etc, etc.



Please know that this group (for the most part) is grateful for information

and will evaluate what is presented dispassionately.



Condolences,

_________________
Ira N224XS

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