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n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Will EAA charge?  Oh yes. But I wouldn't blame them. I presume it costs

 them to provide it and I've seen no evidence that the goal of the

 organization is to cut its profit margin.

 


	


[Tim] 

I wouldn't blame them for charging for this service once it works well as it

clearly is an extra.   But good gosh why do they expect a camping person to

pay extra for the shuttle to get to the entrance gate?  I paid 350 bucks to

camp and go to the show and yet they can't provide a reasonable shuttle

service to the main gate?  Lets see... 10,000 campers and 600,000

admissions.. I think they could do a shuttle service for free.



I have seen no evidence either to support change when things don't work.

This is the biggest fly-in anywhere and there are many things that have not

kept up in their planning and implementation.  Besides being asked to pay

for shuttle, it really isn't very effective.  They make no adjustments for

the changing of the traffic such as in the morning when everyone is going to

the gate versus at night when they come back to the campground.  I am no

traffic engineer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express, but I

definitely could do a better job of setting up shuttle services.



I don't dare complain to the volunteers who spend so much time doing what

they can.  I for one appreciate them greatly, and EAA could not put this

together without them.  I would love to have input to the management who has

lost touch but I really think it would be a wasted breath.



Enjoy the good and throw out the rest.



By the way.. Why is it still called (E)AA?  I am pretty sure the "E" has

become silent.



Do Not Archive

Tim

Local Chapters Are the Best

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Tim Bryan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> Will EAA charge?  Oh yes. But I wouldn't blame them. I presume it costs

> them to provide it and I've seen no evidence that the goal of the

> organization is to cut its profit margin.

>

 [Tim] 

 I wouldn't blame them for charging for this service once it works well as it

 clearly is an extra.   But good gosh why do they expect a camping person to

 pay extra for the shuttle to get to the entrance gate?  I paid 350 bucks to

 camp and go to the show and yet they can't provide a reasonable shuttle

 service to the main gate?  Lets see... 10,000 campers and 600,000

 admissions.. I think they could do a shuttle service for free.

 I have seen no evidence either to support change when things don't work.

 This is the biggest fly-in anywhere and there are many things that have not

 kept up in their planning and implementation.  Besides being asked to pay

 for shuttle, it really isn't very effective.  They make no adjustments for

 the changing of the traffic such as in the morning when everyone is going to

 the gate versus at night when they come back to the campground.  I am no

 traffic engineer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express, but I

 definitely could do a better job of setting up shuttle services.

 I don't dare complain to the volunteers who spend so much time doing what

 they can.  I for one appreciate them greatly, and EAA could not put this

 together without them.  I would love to have input to the management who has

 lost touch but I really think it would be a wasted breath.

 Enjoy the good and throw out the rest.

 By the way.. Why is it still called (E)AA?  I am pretty sure the "E" has

 become silent.

 Do Not Archive

 Tim

 Local Chapters Are the Best

Here's a somewhat relevant example of another large spectator event.

In another life, I worked for several years at a major music festival. 

Attendance was somewhat similar to OSH, with 40k to 60k people per day. 

Entry fees were (and are) similar to OSH. There was no camping & 

therefore no burden of shower setup, but there was no camping revenue 

and the difficulties with cleanup & security were many, many times 

greater with tens of thousands of drunks dropping their trash every day.

It was run by a non-profit corp. Every person working, from security to 

ticket takers to sound & light companies to the literally thousands of 

performers, got paid, and paid well. When the last cleanup guy left & 

the books were balanced each year, a hefty sum (the 'profits') went to 

local cultural & arts causes. As far as I know, that's still the case.

I've never been able to figure out where all the OSH money goes when 

virtually every worker, including the performers & those bringing show 

planes (except the security people) is a volunteer. (Yes, I know they 

publish a report. The Feds publish a 'budget' every year, too.)

Charlie

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've never been able to figure out where all the OSH money goes when 

 virtually every worker, including the performers & those bringing show 

 planes (except the security people) is a volunteer. 


	


Can you say "profit for the family"



Ron Lee

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

I haven't taken the bus (I have a parking spot in the media lot) this year, but I've certainly taken the bus from camp before.What are they charging this year.



In the past there's always been a box next to the driver with a suggested donation of 25 cents. I always put a dollar in becuase I was ashamed of my fellow passengers who had no problem spending $30,000 for an instrument panel, but couldn't fork over 25 cents for a bus ride.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com (n616tb(at)btsapps.com)> 

Subject: RE: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh 

I am not disagreeing with anyone's complaint about EAA or 

AirVenture, it's a personal experience. I have heard 

complaints before. I've gone to the big show may be 10 

times in the last twenty years. It's a lot of fun and I would 

hate to think about it not being there. As far as cost, I agree 

that it can be expensive. Admissions where $22 a day and 

$7 to park, $18? to camp (regardless of occupancy). That is 

the price. I don't see that as too expensive. To go to a music 

concert now a days its $100. I can't talk about shuttle cost 

but the buss and little tram where always free/donation before. 

  The food vendors are crazy but than that is common issue.

What you can say, the EAA has a pretty orginized clean 

operation. It has not changed in a long time.  Most of my 

complaints are not in EAA's control, crowds and weather.

How EAA uses their money? As a non-profit I would think 

the IRS and Gov has pretty good accounting of that. Does 

Tom make too much money? I don't know. I don't think any 

one is getting rich of Aviation, including the EAA. 

  I agree the 'E' in EAA is not really there any more. For a long 

time that has been a big complaint, that the War Birds get the 

glory? Well there may be truth to that. I agree but to most folks 

want to see and hear the heavy iron. The homebuilt  does still 

get show center and some subtle perks over regular planes. 

  However EAA is a big group with war birds, antiques,  classics, 

acro, ultra lights and now LSA, which I think is an ill conceived 

class of plane and pilot, but that is another story.

        Ready for the edge of your seat?    [quote][b]

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Here's my take...



EAA's annual fee is reasonable.  I just wish the magazine spent more  

time on EXPERIMENTAL airplanes and less on, well, everything else --  

including all the self-promoting they do.  I REALLY get tired of the  

self-promoting.



AirVenture is too expensive.  But then, I have to wonder what the  

cost is of all those porta-potties.



AirVenture would be a lot better with some small changes.  For one,  

more places to wash your hands!  With soap.  The maps should show the  

routes all the trams and busses take, maybe even with time to travel  

so you can decide if the tram is better than walking.



The air show at AirVenture -- war birds and Extras, Extras and war  

birds.  Where are the experimentals?  And Mr. Announcer... SHUT UP.   

Could you be any more insipid?  Also the staged "fake" performances  

are lame.



The workshops at AirVenture rock!



And I love the great access to all the vendors.  20 minute  

conversation with one of the guys from P-Mag, for instance.



-J

Painless

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Peshtigo, Wisconsin

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Gotta Jump in here



On the local news, Tom P. was saying that there are some changes in store 

for the next few years,  He claims that EAA will be spending more $ on 

improvements over the next 5 years than they have over the last 25.



Some things that were mentioned were better transport around the grounds as 

well as from the parking lots for the day-trippers, as well as improvements 

to the campground.  No specifics, but electric hookups would be nice.....

Regards,



Jeff Orear

RV6A N782P  ( back from my first flight into OSH)

Peshtigo, WI

---

_________________
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Peshtigo, WI

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Yes, it would be kind of nice if they spent some of the $50,000,000 they

have in the bank on the ones "that brung 'em to the dance."  Let's see,

better transportation....that leaves another $49,950,000 to spend.  I

don't think they're hurtin' yet.



Chuck Jensen



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

 	  jpl(at)showpage.org wrote: 	
		  AirVenture is too expensive.  But then, I have to wonder what the  cost is of all those porta-potties.

	




I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it cost, given the breadth of offerings there.



Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from the campground to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I inquired how much that person was paying and didn't hear back. 



I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost consisted of an optional 25-cent donation.



There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't buy food there...walk over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats for $2 (drinks $1.50).



Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to park at a Twins game.  $19 for a spot in a campground is not unreasonable. It's $20 (no hookup) over at Circle R, and it's $5 a pop if you have more than 2 people over 16 total.



So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right?  It's $22 a day... $102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.



Is that an unreasonable amount of money?



I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67 a day for anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's Field in Cleveland is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop).  I went to the Day in Pompeii exhibit at the Minnesota Science Museum last month. It was $24 each.... $18 for kids.



So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is actually BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.



So what EXACTLY is the problem?

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members of the

EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by charging us

for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using volunteer

labor and running the surpluses that some say they are. Sure, you pay to go

to a theme park or a professional ball game or to a special exhibit at a

museum, but if you are a member of the Museum of Flight here in Seattle, you

get in free. It's the non-members that pay admission. 



But this is all kind of academic to me. I don't expect to ever go to Oshkosh

because I have an aversion to crowds. All the self-promotion that EAA and

AOPA does reminds me of something learned years ago in business school: Non

profit organizations are non-profit because they distribute all income in

excess of expenses to someone other than share holders. That makes them one

of the most financially rewarding types of organizations to create, manage

or work for. 



Terry

--

jfogarty(at)tds.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Bob,  You have away with words.  Right on!



Great show!



Jim

---

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

It was nice to meet you last Wednesday, Bob.

Here's my take on the costs...

I don't think your comparisons are against comparable venues.

Parking -- it's unfair to compare parking for a Twins game.  That's  

deep in downtown in a paved lot.  A more fair comparison would be the  

Minnesota Renaissance Festival -- where you also park in a big open  

field.  Parking for Ren Fair is free.

Camping -- That $19 a night is high for the space you get.  For $18,  

I can go to Lake Elmo, get electrical and NOT be crammed in right  

next to the people beside me.  And it's not sitting next to a  

freeway.  Also, the "pay through the show and get a refund on the way  

out" thing is annoying.  Especially if you want to leave late in the  

afternoon and get a refund for the following days, but the exit you  

use has a big sign that says "camping refunds closed".  Furthermore,  

when I go to Lake Elmo, I get to actually camp under a few trees and  

probably have more trees between me and my neighbors.

General Admission -- it's not $22.  It's $22 if you're an EAA member,  

$33 if you aren't.  I renewed my membership strictly for the show.   

Compare again to the Ren Fest at $19, and you don't have to join  

anything.  Now, I get a lot more out of a trip to AirVenture, but  

most of what I really like about it costs the EAA almost nothing to  

provide.  The presenters are volunteers.  The vendors most certainly  

pay for the opportunity to talk to me.  Yes, it costs something to  

provide the venue, and I recognize that.

I guess what bugged me was giving them $200 for a Wednesday night  

arrival, plus I did a $20 donation to the Young Eagles raffle.  Right  

now with my wife not working, $200 means something to me.  A few  

years ago with a working spouse and a gangbusters consultancy going,  

$200 wasn't a big deal to me.  So everything is relative.

If they're going to charge commercial prices for things, they should  

deliver commercial quality services.  Those camping facilities  

weren't commercial quality.  Parking was not commercial quality.  So  

don't charge me commercial rates to park / camp in a field where I  

can listen to the freeway and hear the folks around me whispering to  

each other (much less slamming of RV doors, kids giggling, cars  

driving around looking for a place to camp, etc).

For the show itself -- is it worth $22?  Depends.  If you hit the  

workshops, then yes.  For access to vendors?  Well I guess I would  

expect whatever they paid to cover the mutual cost.  I don't pay to  

go to a shopping mall, after all, unless I buy something.  So  

offering a multi-day discount seems reasonable.  Maybe $22 each of  

the first two days, but a lower rate for subsequent days.

-Joe

On Jul 30, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:

> AirVenture is too expensive.  But then, I have to wonder what the   

> cost is of all those porta-potties.

>

 I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it  

 cost, given the breadth of offerings there.

 Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from  

 the campground to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I  

 inquired how much that person was paying and didn't hear back.

 I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost  

 consisted of an optional 25-cent donation.

 There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't  

 buy food there...walk over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats  

 for $2 (drinks $1.50).

 Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to  

 park at a Twins game.  $19 for a spot in a campground is not  

 unreasonable. It's $20 (no hookup) over at Circle R, and it's $5 a  

 pop if you have more than 2 people over 16 total.

 So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right?  It's  

 $22 a day... $102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.

 Is that an unreasonable amount of money?

 I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67  

 a day for anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's  

 Field in Cleveland is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop).  I went to the  

 Day in Pompeii exhibit at the Minnesota Science Museum last month.  

 It was $24 each.... $18 for kids.

 So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is  

 actually BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.

 So what EXACTLY is the problem?

 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

 	  Terry Watson wrote: 	
		  Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members of the

EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by charging us

for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using volunteer

labor and running the surpluses that some say they are. 	




As someone smart once said to me, "you could stand on the corner throwing $100 bills in the air and you'd still find someone to tell you you're an a-hole."  That's the situation Poberezny is in and while he may not be building planes in his garage, I found no shortage of people who are building airplanes at AirVenture, and no shortage of things directed toward people who are. Of course, I also found no shortage of things aimed at people who are doing all sorts of other things.



If anyone would actually walk from any part of Oshkosh to any *other* part of Oshkosh, they will find that there's more to putting on AirVenture than volunteers. Beyond that, most of the folks who seem not to like AirVenture, also acknowledge they don't actually *go* to AirVenture.



I think that's fine; people should be able to make the choices they want to make, without insisting that it change to accomodate the people who don't go.



Personally, when people say AirVenture is too corporate and has lost its homebulding roots, I wonder what they did while they were AT AirVenture? There's something for everyone as near as I can tell.  The amount of stuff I wanted to get to and didn't reached an all-time high for me this year. Still, it was the best one I've ever had.



Many of those same people who complain that AirVenture isn't what it was 20 years ago, are also the ones that showed up in giant RVs with air conditioning,  expandable living rooms and giant satellite dishes. Or, perhaps, they flew in with their all glass cockpits in their homebuilts.



Again, that's fine. But why would you want AirVenture to be just like 20 years ago when the last think we want in our homebuilts, it appears, is for them to be exactly like they were 20 years ago.



No matter what the answer, I still come away every year from these threads with  complaints without an answer to EXACTLY what it is people want?



Everyone I ran into last week -- and I'd guess that number would be between 750 and 1,000 -- were having a great time. Maybe it's because they didn't do things they didn't like doing, and were doing things they did.



But it's impossible for me to believe that at something as diverse as AirVenture, folks who are really interested in getting something out of it for the money they put into it,  don't get something significant out of it.



In the big scheme of thing, the cost of AirVenture is chicken feed.



But here's the thing. In this country right now, we insist not only that *our* individual tastes be met, we insist that other individual tastes NOT be met. It's ludicrous and it's why homebulders don't  like warbirds who don't like seaplane people who don't like ultralight people who don't like Cirrus owners who don't like RV owners.



Good Lord, AirVenture is un-flippin' believable in terms of the wide range of interests represented therein. People who don't like it aren't really trying that hard to find their own interests, or are working too hard to find reasons to be unsatisfied.



The folks who volunteer ALL seem to be having a great time and found their experience worthwhile. They didn't seem to be bitter or feel they were being taken advantage of. They seemed to like being a part of something. 



AirVenture isn't the group that sponsors it. It's the people who are part of it. I'd pay twice as much to be with them again and it's only been two days since I left.



If, in its present state, AirVenture were to disappear tomorrow, I can't imagine for a minute feeling as though I were better off because of its disappearance.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Hey Bob,



Glad to meet you by the way and very much enjoyed the BBQ and the people who

volunteered to help.  I worked most of it and enjoyed every minute of it.

Thanks a bunch for championing that event.



It was I who remarked about the shuttle bus charging but not because it cost

too much.  It was more about the idea of charging for it at all.  It is

kinda like charging high camping rates (higher than any campground I have

stayed in for dry camping.  Charging admission rates that are reasonable

compared to other venues, but full fare none the less and then oh by the way

we want you to donate funds to get you from the camping to the gate even

though our drivers work endlessly for free.  25 cents is nothing really and

we paid it with a smile for the driver's sake.  EAA has no need to charge

for it.



Overall this was a little thing and EAA certainly needs to implement big

changes to keep up with the growth they have.  They certainly have done a

pretty good job all things considered and I am not really complaining.  But

my nature is to say when I see individual things done poorly that could

easily be fixed with a little tweek, I suspect they see it too and should

consider fixing it.  I was at Oshkosh in 2000 and saw the same things done

poorly this time as was done then.  That suggests someone isn't paying

attention.



Besides this, I had a great time, enjoyed everything, and was appreciative

for the event.  Just to be clear, I am not slamming the event and I

certainly paid more than I think I should have, but it is the nature of the

event business.  This one however mostly volunteer by people just like you

and I and the EAA org is getting the full benefit in profits.  Too bad they

can't put some of that big profit back into making the event a little easier

for those who attend.



Tim

Do Not Archive



[quote] --

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:57, Terry Watson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members  

 of the

 EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by  

 charging us

 for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using  

 volunteer

 labor and running the surpluses that some say they are. Sure, you  

 pay to go

 to a theme park or a professional ball game or to a special exhibit  

 at a

 museum, but if you are a member of the Museum of Flight here in  

 Seattle, you

 get in free. It's the non-members that pay admission.



 But this is all kind of academic to me. I don't expect to ever


	


But what about the huge number of EAA members who, for one reason or  

another, cannot attend the OSH fly-in?  Should their membership dues  

be subsidizing the members who can attend?  That doesn't seem fair to  

me.  I believe the costs of the annual fly-in should be borne by  

those who attend.  EAA membership dues should be used to pay all the  

other costs of running EAA.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.



The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is any guide, most don't).



It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.



By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.



I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13.



I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled excitement just doesn't bother me much.



It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else in the world. 



I can think of so many things that bug me more.



Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

That's a very good point, Kevin. Part of the reason I don't mind paying the

twelve dollars or so to spend a couple of hours at the EAA Arlington every

year is that I know that non-members are paying a bit more, so there is some

benefit to me from my membership.  And I certainly don't expect those EAA

members far away to be subsidizing my attendance.



I'm all for those who use something paying for it (that was called User Fees

until that got such a bad smell in private aviation). 



Terry



--

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

Bob, I agree that the show has things going for it.



But your comment about the truckers and their air horns sort of hits  

the nail squarely on the head.  If we're going to put up with  

truckers hitting air horns, then $19 a day for camping is high.



I think the discussion is (for me) over about $50 -- 25% of what I  

gave the EAA last Wednesday.  My original comment wasn't "OMG it's  

WAY too expensive."  Just a little high, that's all.



-J



On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Bob Collins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>



 Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.



 The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually  

 cost to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is  

 required to put any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my  

 anecdotal experience is any guide, most don't).



 It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year  

 to put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.



 By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT  

 working for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.



 I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl  

 space once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I  

 started at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights  

 fly overhead, visited with tons of people, watched every kind of  

 plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the  

 show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while watching a  

 movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell  

 talk about Apollo 13.



 I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT  

 seems like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like  

 a ripoff. I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV  

 and none of those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of  

 unparalleled excitement just doesn't bother me much.



 It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where  

 aviation is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was  

 on a spot of ground where something is happening that is not  

 happening ANYWHERE else in the world.



 I can think of so many things that bug me more.



 Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm  

 going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to  

 bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.



 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

FWIW, I've posted the EAA tax filing for 2006 here:



http://home.comcast.net/~bcollinsrv7a/eaa/files/eaa.pdf



It might help illuminate the money thing.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

bmeyette

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Cornish, NH

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh

I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all have

always been ignored.   Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help.   It

HAS improved.  We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 years

ago, when we first went.



My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first time.

It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign that said

the shuttle was $2 round trip.  Hmmmm



The RV BBQ was just SUPER!  Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the other

volunteers for putting on such a great event.   Thanks to Stein, GRT, and

all the other vendors who contributed to it.  It was a real pleasure to meet

and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so long, but

haven't had a chance to meet yet.  I didn't find Chad Jensen or Dave

Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.



brian



--

_________________
Brian Meyette, Cornish, NH

RV-7A QB tipup, supercharged Subaru STi engine, MT CS prop, all glass day/night/IFR panel, being built with solar and wind power

N432MM

http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm

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