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582 engine adjustments
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Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Mark, again you said a mouthful, am trying to decipher. I was contemplating moving my jet needle to a leaner position. I gather that you don't think I should set my jet needle leaner, be it up or down. You must be saying to concentrate on the air screw, AKA idle jet. The "main jet", is essientially the seat that the needle interfaces with, right? The "needle jet" would be the combination of needle and jet, and the "jet needle", is the needle part of the needle jet, right?



You said: "Going to a larger needle jet enriches the mixture across the entire mid-range. Raising the needle mostly enriches it at the lower end. The main jet sets the full-throttle mixture and affects the high-end of the 

mid-range."



Right back at you: I was contemplating lowering the needle, which by reverse logic, would keep the same mixture at full throttle and leave unaffected the "high end of the mid range". Thus, I would be only leaning out the low end of the mid range, which is where I am getting the 4 cycling, I think.



I got lucky and caught the leading edge of the 80's hiring spree right after the USAF. Besides heavy metal, I have been busy recently with Civil Air Patrol. Low and slow will be just what the doctor ordered if I can work out the bugs. Is that Asheville, NC?

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

I do tend to ramble on....



About the parts on the carb that affect the mixture; there are:



* The idle jet.

* The jet needle.

* The needle jet (You have to unscrew the mixer to get to this one) -

the needle goes in and out of it.

* The main jet (at the bottom of the mixer) - the screen is around it at

the bottom of the bowl.  Small and fairly cheap for a Bing part.

* The screen - never run without: it breaks up the bubbles and the

mixture won't be right without it.

* The air bypass idle mixture screw.

* The idle stop screw.

* The float arm (adjust the tab for correct float level - that affects

the mixture)



You might want to call up Bing and order the manual for the carbs.  I

think it is still less than $20 and is well worth it for the amount of

head-banging it eliminates.



You are right, lowering the needle will lean the lower part of the

midrange.  I still wouldn't drop that needle without trying a leaner

idle jet 1st.  The reason is the midrange does tend to run warm.  Mine

does anyway.



Yep, Asheville NC.  I live just east of Atlanta and that's a fun

x-country except for the last couple of minutes under the class C

airspace.  Weather and hills make it interesting to get back out

sometimes.



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Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Yes, my education on this needs to continue, and I am sure the Bing manual would be quite enlightening.  Meanwhile from your list, you cite an "idle jet" and the "air bypass idle mixture screw". You could have convinced me they were the same thing. I think I get it nonetheless, it is the air bypass mixture screw that I should try changing, from the standard #55 to a 50 or 45.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

A comment about Bing carburetors. If egts' stay near the same when throttle is reduced then as I have come to understand the needle and the main jet are "balanced".  Whether the carb is running rich, lean or just right needs to be diagnosed by means other than the egt meter.  The meters are okay for relative readings but not so good for absolute degrees.

  

 Diagnosis of mixture can be from the color of the plugs if taxiing back to the ramp does not contaminate them.  I have found the starting enrichening circuit (choke) to be helpful.  While in cruise mode pull the choke on gradually.  If the rpms increase then mixture is too lean.  If rpms drop then mixture is too rich.  If you see no change then mixture is good.

  

 Others may have developed different approaches.

  

 John Kerr

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Napier, Mark" <Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Napier, Mark" 

 

 I do tend to ramble on.... 

 

 About the parts on the carb that affect the mixture; there are: 

 

 * The idle jet. 

 * The jet needle. 

 * The needle jet (You have to unscrew the mixer to get to this one) - 

 the needle goes in and out of it. 

 * The main jet (at the bottom of the mixer) - the screen is around it at 

 the bottom of the bowl. Small and fairly cheap for a Bing part. 

 * The screen - never run without: it breaks up the bubbles and the 

 mixture won't be right without it. 

 * The air bypass idle mixture screw. 

 * The idle stop screw. 

 * The float arm (adjust the tab for c  orrect  float level - that affects 

 the mixture) 

 

 You might want to call up Bing and order the manual for the carbs. I 

 think it is still less than $20 and is well worth it for the amount of 

 head-banging it eliminates. 

 

 You are right, lowering the needle will lean the lower part of the 

 midrange. I still wouldn't drop that needle without trying a leaner 

 idle jet 1st. The reason is the midrange does tend to run warm. Mine 

 does anyway. 

 

 Yep, Asheville NC. I live just east of Atlanta and that's a fun 

 x-country except for the last couple of minutes under the class C 

 airspace. Weather and hills make it interesting to get back out 

 sometimes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 - - - - - Appended by Scientific Atlanta, a Cisco company - - - - - 

 This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, 

 propr  ietary  ======  [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/bing/



If you scroll down, it has alot of links.. it will answer all you questions, give you pics and diagrams and articles.  Should have everything you need.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Jeffrey,  You should take a look at the back sextion of the CPS catalog 

entitiled Proper care and feeding of the Rotax motor.  Part 10 is Tuning the 

Bing carberator.  It has pictures of all the parts and how they work.  I 

believe you can read them on line also.  Their website is 

www.800-airwolf.com.  Reading this will help you quite a bit.  Also,  the 

plugs tell the story, but what should you look for in the plugs?  Shorty had 

a picture of his plugs that were just right posted at one point.  A picture 

is better than many words trying to describe colors ect.  Maybe he will 

chime in, but I think he had it posted on the lazair site where they used to 

post vidieos.  Hope this helps,  Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV Jabiru 2200 (finally)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Jeffrey Dill" <1dillfamily(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:14:18 -0700






Yes, my education on this needs to continue, and I am sure the Bing manual 

would be quite enlightening.  Meanwhile from your list, you cite an "idle 

jet" and the "air bypass idle mixture screw". You could have convinced me 

they were the same thing. I think I get it nonetheless, it is the air 

bypass mixture screw that I should try changing, from the standard #55 to a 

50 or 45.



--------

Jeff Dill

Model 2, 767JD





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131444#131444






	


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Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Am looking at CPS now. Their price for the idler jet is considerably better. 19.95.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Ok, I feel stupid again. I figured that before I ordered different idler jets, I had better check to make sure South Mississippi hooked me up with stock jets. I tried removing what I thought was the idler jet and found a needle valve. It turns out that I have been adjusting the "air screw" when I thought it was the idler jet. Now I am looking for the idler jet, which is not jumping out at me on the various schematics. Example: 

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/bing/bingservice.html



The picture of the idler jet looks distinctly different from the air screw, so it cannot be a case of two names for one thing.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

to get to the idle jet, or any jet for that matter, you have to pull the float bowl.  The idle jet is #14 on the diagram, and the mixture screw you have been turning is #28.  this is the diagram at the bottom of the page on the link you just posted.

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Ok, I get it. Right now I have reached equilibrium again. I am resolved that I need a leaner idle jet. My only consternation is about which one to get, #45 or 50? I might sleep on it.



I flew today. Connecticut has this thing about letting people pull airplanes on trailers on a state airport. Until I fought it with the help of AOPA, they wouldn't let you do it unless you paid for a tie down. Now, they need proof of insurance and registration to protect themselves in case I hit something. If I only paid for a tie-down, they wouldn't care if I was insured.



Anyway, I got through and had fun. Tried to see how short of a takeoff I could accomplish. I lined up at the edge of a runway stripe and tried to get off before the beginning of the next stripe, which I did, but kind of sideways to the left, just on the brink of flight, my left tire was the last to leave the ground.



Then I decided to test this thing about dimished aileron with full flaps. My handle does not have a stop on it, so on downwind I pulled the handle all the way up. Diminished my butt!, The stick came to attention and would not move left or right!  I knew that wouldn't do, so I decided to select a compromise postion that combined the most flap with the minimum aileron I thought I might need. The winds were light. So, I came down final fine, did my roundout and set up for the touchdown. I must have done one of those drop-in touchdowns that lowers your tail and sends you right back up again, it all happened fast. All I know is that my left wing was up and I wanted it down, then the airplane said, no-sir, you denied me that aileron, remember? Power, lots of it. Pucker power! I had a blast.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Jeff

  

 Generally a stop is set to prevent flap deployment beyond the point that the stick is restricted in roll.  While on the ground, pull the stick to the left limit and then slowly pull the flaps on.  When you feel the stick try to straighten up stop there. You have already gone just a touch too far.  Then pull the stick to the stops in the right.  Pull on the flaps again until the stick starts to move and that is again the limit.  I just used an adel clamp on the center tubing to indicate this limit position.

  

 Jim Shumaker

 ---

_________________
Jim Shumaker

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: 582 engine adjustments

Thanks. I knew there was guidance suggesting a stop, but never heard such a detailed method of determining where it should go. I have other flap questions, but will start another thread later on due to time constraints.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

malpass

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PUT A NUMBER 40 IN MY 582 GREYHEAD, AND IT MADE ALL 

KINDS OF IMPROVEMENT ON THE IDLE.  AT ABOUT 1900, VERY SMOOTH, AND BEFORE 

THAT IT WOULDNT GO MUCH LESS THAT 2400.



I AM IN GEORGIA AND BY LEANING ON HOT DAYS, IT REALLY HELPS.



 BILL

---

_________________
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

good day guys.My Kitfox 582 gray head ..runs ruff,and shakes real 

bad.any RPM under 2000.do I too need to replace my jets to 40s.???any 

thing above that it runs fine..I have a kitfox 2,with only 160hr 

TT.built in 1992.N554KF.U think that I too to replace jets??thanks Steve 

Shinabery



Bill Malpass wrote:

[quote] 

 <malpass-architect(at)comcast.net>



 FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PUT A NUMBER 40 IN MY 582 GREYHEAD, AND IT MADE 

 ALL KINDS OF IMPROVEMENT ON THE IDLE.  AT ABOUT 1900, VERY SMOOTH, AND 

 BEFORE THAT IT WOULDNT GO MUCH LESS THAT 2400.



 I AM IN GEORGIA AND BY LEANING ON HOT DAYS, IT REALLY HELPS.



 BILL

 ---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Hi Steve.

   

  I think shaking is normal for the 582 at low idle rpms. Mine used to do that too early on. Now I can't seem get the idle speed below 2500. It runs smoothly there but it's a bit too fast for the centrifugal clutch to disengage. I'm going to try going from 45 to 40 with the idle jets before I go filing the carb slides.

  

Steve Shinabery <shinco(at)bright.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Shinabery 



good day guys.My Kitfox 582 gray head ..runs ruff,and shakes real 

bad.any RPM under 2000.do I too need to replace my jets to 40s.???any 

thing above that it runs fine..I have a kitfox 2,with only 160hr 

TT.built in 1992.N554KF.U think that I too to replace jets??thanks Steve 

Shinabery



Bill Malpass wrote:

[quote] -->  Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Malpass" 

 



 FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PUT A NUMBER 40 IN MY 582 GREYHEAD, AND IT MADE 

 ALL KINDS OF IMPROVEMENT ON THE IDLE. AT ABOUT 1900, VERY SMOOTH, AND 

 BEFORE THAT IT WOULDNT GO MUCH LESS THAT 2400.



 I AM IN GEORGIA AND BY LEANING ON HOT DAYS, IT REALLY HELPS.



 BILL

 ---

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Thanks for helping me..I too will go to the 40 jets.may be it will run 

better at low RPM there.engine runs good at any thing above 2000RPM.I 

would like to get teh RPM down just a little bit more if I can.it would 

be nice.I thought that may be it could even be the propeller 

adj.needed.could this be?  Thanks Steve Shinabery,N554KF  KF2 582 gray head.



Marco Menezes wrote:

[quote] Hi Steve.

  

 I think shaking is normal for the 582 at low idle rpms. Mine used to 

 do that too early on. Now I can't seem get the idle speed below 2500. 

 It runs smoothly there but it's a bit too fast for the centrifugal 

 clutch to disengage. I'm going to try going from 45 to 40 with the 

 idle jets before I go filing the carb slides.



 */Steve Shinabery <shinco(at)bright.net>/* wrote:



     



     good day guys.My Kitfox 582 gray head ..runs ruff,and shakes real

     bad.any RPM under 2000.do I too need to replace my jets to 40s.???any

     thing above that it runs fine..I have a kitfox 2,with only 160hr

     TT.built in 1992.N554KF.U think that I too to replace jets??thanks

     Steve

     Shinabery



     Bill Malpass wrote:

     > 

     >

     >

     > FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PUT A NUMBER 40 IN MY 582 GREYHEAD, AND

     IT MADE

     > ALL KINDS OF IMPROVEMENT ON THE IDLE. AT ABOUT 1900, VERY

     SMOOTH, AND

     > BEFORE THAT IT WOULDNT GO MUCH LESS THAT 2400.

     >

     > I AM IN GEORGIA AND BY LEANING ON HOT DAYS, IT REALLY HELPS.

     >

     > BILL

     >

     >

     > ---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

As I understand it, a coarser pitch on your prop will reduce your rpms at higher power settings, increase cruise speed and also raise your EGT's. I don't think it will do much to reduce rpms at idle.

Steve Shinabery <shinco(at)bright.net> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Shinabery 

Thanks for helping me..I too will go to the 40 jets.may be it will run 

better at low RPM there.engine runs good at any thing above 2000RPM.I 

would like to get teh RPM down just a little bit more if I can.it would 

be nice.I thought that may be it could even be the propeller 

adj.needed.could this be? Thanks Steve Shinabery,N554KF KF2 582 gray head.

Marco Menezes wrote:

[quote] Hi Steve.

 I think shaking is normal for the 582 at low idle rpms. Mine used to 

 do that too early on.  Now I can't seem get the idle speed below 2500. 

 It runs smoothly there but it's a bit too fast for the centrifugal 

 clutch to disengage. I'm going to try going from 45 to 40 with the 

 idle jets before I go filing the carb slides.

 */Steve Shinabery /* wrote:

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Shinabery

 good day guys.My Kitfox 582 gray head ..runs ruff,and shakes real

 bad.any RPM under 2000.do I too need to replace my jets to 40s.???any

 thing above that it runs fine..I have a kitfox 2,with only 160hr

 TT.built in 1992.N554KF.U think that I too to replace jets??thanks

 Steve

 Shinabery

 Bill Malpass wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Malpass"

 >

 >

 > FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PUT A NUMBER 40 IN MY 582 GREYHEAD, AND

 IT MADE

 > ALL KINDS OF IMPROVEMENT  ON THE IDLE. AT ABOUT 1900, VERY

 SMOOTH, AND

 > BEFORE THAT IT WOULDNT GO MUCH LESS THAT 2400.

 >

 > I AM IN GEORGIA AND BY LEANING ON HOT DAYS, IT REALLY HELPS.

 >

 > BILL

 >

 >

 > ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Partly true Marco.  A coarser pitch on the  prop will "reduce" EGTs at cruise.  

 Good seeing you at East Tawas.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

"Two out of three ain't  bad" ....  Increasing pitch lowers EGT.  All other things  remaining consistent.

  

 Noel

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: 582 engine adjustments

Thanks. I'm here to learn.  (66%, a "C-" passing, but barely)

   

  My best also to Lowell and wife. Tho we've not had the pleasure of meeting face to face, I've learned alot from him in this forum.

   

  do not archive



fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:

  [quote]        Partly true Marco.  A coarser pitch on the prop will "reduce" EGTs at cruise.  

  Good seeing you at East Tawas.

  Deke

   

  [quote]  ---

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