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I know this is a mistake, but.....

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copperhead(at)boycomonlin
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

I can't help myself.  Like everyone else, I hate to see non RV related 

discussions carry on for a week or more but I feel I must present the other 

side to this conversation.



I have been a member of the lists for a couple of years, albeit a lurker.  I 

am also a student pilot, an RV-9A builder and a Police Lieutenant with 23 

years on the force.  The information I have gleaned from those far wiser and 

more experienced than I, from this list, well I could never afford to pay 

for and appreciate.  I respect each and every member of the forum and each 

brings his/her own style and expertise to the group.  Having said that, let 

me add the small amount of expertise I can offer to the group.



We CONSTANTLY get reports of potential crimes which are in progress or have 

just occurred.  We have an obligation to investigate each and every one of 

them to the best of our ability.  Many are erroneous for a many myriad of 

reasons, but they require we do something or otherwise we are accused of 

doing nothing.  If you report suspicious activity, you expect us to follow 

up on the information you supply...right?  If not then we are called fat, 

lazy, donut eating bums whom you can't rely on.



During these initial investigations we encounter normal, everyday people 

just making their way through life without a clue anything is going on, we 

don't know that.  We have a description of a person, vehicle, etc. and we 

contact them not knowing whether they are just what they pretending to be, 

or loaded with anger and /or purpose just looking for a place to dump it. 

The circumstances of the report we are given (which can vary greatly) 

dictate how we handle the situation.



Most times it is simply a stop, explain the situation, identify everyone 

involved, satisfy ourselves that you are not of the criminal milieu and move 

on.  THIS is called a detention or a detainment and does not require 

probable cause, merely reasonable suspicion.  You fit the description, the 

timing is right, etc. so we intervene.  The length of time must be 

reasonable for the situation involved.  On the other hand, if more evidence, 

information, etc. leads that you were involved, it could result in one being 

taken into custody (technically an arrest).  This requires probable cause 

which is facts, and circumstances which would lead a prudent man to believe 

that a crime has been committed and the person(s) you have detained may have 

committed the crime.  This is vastly different from a investigative 

detention in which no one is being seized, simply detained and identified, 

which the courts have ruled you have to provide.



If we have a report of a robbery (for example) and the suspects left in a 

blue Chevy, you can bet we are going to stop every blue Chevy which we see 

leaving the area, which could vary depending on response time of all 

Officers.  In this particular case, I can see a report of a small plane 

acting suspicious around a protected area could result in all aircraft 

landing in a specific timeframe area being detained and identified.



Now was the report justified?  Was it a result of someone being paranoid or 

not knowing what the heck they were talking about?  Was it some jealous, 

jilted girlfriend who knew her ex was out flying and called it in to cause 

him problems?  Was it a couple of "sheetheads" out doing surveillance from 

the air trying to access the possible vulnerability of a nuclear power 

plant?  Things are not always as they appear and evil people are good at 

making things appear normal.  That is their job and they live it 24/7.  No 

one knows until it is checked out and who draws the short straw for 

this...the Police.  Imagine the uproar if we did nothing and all the while a 

plan was afoot?



Just like after 9-11, law enforcement didn't do enough to protect us from 

the event so a new plan was devised.  Now we are overzealous, jack booted 

thugs who only want to erode the rights of the people so the will of the 

government can prevail and we can all be reduced to mere paupers peering out 

of dark places in fear.  Someone used the example of the 85 year old 

grandmother being treated the same as someone else.  I know it sounds 

utterly ridiculous to normal people, but we see elderly people constantly 

smuggling copious amounts of illegal substances.  One of the  largest 

cocaine dealers I ever arrested in this area was 78 years old.  As I said, 

people up to no good constantly try to find ways to circumvent the 

procedures currently in place by any means necessary and nearly everyone is 

corruptible if the money is right.  It is our responsibility to sniff them 

out while all the time trying to utilize common sense, not let someone slip 

through, and not get killed.



Don't get me wrong, there is a butt load of problems with this society and I 

wholeheartedly agree that the greedy politicians don't have our best 

interests in mind.  I also agree that we as a nation have digressed, are our 

losing our rights, our standing as a global power and the one everyone looks 

up to for "doing the right thing".  Its the same ole human story since the 

beginning of time and has become all about sex, money and power and we let 

our representatives on every level be consumed by it.



The point to this dribble being, its not necessarily the Police.  Sure there 

are hotdogs, untrained, uneducated and overzealous Officers who shouldn't be 

allowed to play with sharp objects, let alone carry a gun, but they are a 

minority and with proper supervision are weeded out.  As a supervisor I have 

conducted internal affairs investigations and found the most were simply 

someone trying to get back at some Officer because they were arrested, 

however, there were also those which were blatantly wrong and the Officer 

was speared.  The vast majority of people I deal with are professional, 

hardworking people who care about their communities and protecting the 

rights of the innocent while trying to guarantee your rights as a citizen, 

which is often a hair thin line.  We try and sometimes fail, but we are 

human just like you and simply want to get home to our families, our 

projects and live to fly and love just one more day.



Our representatives are the bad guys here and we need change them, as 

needed, so they represent the will of the majority of the people, (not the 

special interests, "squeaky wheels", those with a boatload of money, or 

those who can provide them with a few minutes pleasure in a bathroom stall 

someplace) are enforced.  We all need to get more heavily involved in the 

process, initiate change, recall petitions, etc.  Our form of government is 

allegedly representative, but how can it be when the majority doesn't even 

vote?  All we want to do is sit around and complain about how things are, 

not actually go out and do something.



Interaction with the Police is seldom a pleasant thing and we get beat up 

all the time, but if you feel you have been wronged by the Police to the 

point it upsets you, go to the Department, fill out a written complaint and 

take the appropriate actions against rogue Officers to help get rid of them, 

but please don't paint all of us with the same brush as true Officers are 

servants of the public who care about you and your rights....we just happen 

to be at the pivot point of the balance scale.



Sorry for the long post and rant, and please DO NOT ARCHIVE.  I would 

continue this discussion offline if you like but as far as the forum goes 

and as Forrest Gump says, "That's all I've got to say about that".



Chuck Stratton

Missouri

90662 (emp) currently remodeling so the wife will let me build

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: Re: I know this is a mistake, but.....

First, Chuck, thank you for your service in a difficult job. It's worth noting that there are LOT of law enforcement people on Planet RV.



My one question is would it be more prudent to go talk to the old lady (actually, I don't know if she was old) who made the call first to see what exactly her suspicion was to determine whether it was reasonable? And then, if it made sense... continue on.



Also, it's safe to say, I think that the cops aren't in a very good position to police the skies. Would it make sense to call the nearest FAA facility and find out who's up there and where they are in order to properly investigate?



As for probable cause and reasonable suspicion, I believe 99% of the cops are honest. But in my part of town, if you're a black person, you don't hang an air freshener off your rear view mirror.



Probable cause, as I'm sure you know, can be ascertained by the answers to questions while one is detained. As indicated earlier, I would not offer anything while being detained other than what I am required to provide. Above all, however, I would do so courteously, but I would certainly not voluntarily provide that which I am under no obligation to provide.



I also wonder how many police officers know that I'm not required to surrender possession of my pilot's certificate and other papers.  I know I'm required to "present it for inspection." But you know when you're stopped in a car and you take my license and proof of insurance back to your car to phone it in? Does that constitute surrendering?



Similarly, when a proper authority asks for my pilot's certificate, what EXACTLY does it mean "present it for inspection?" Does that mean it can leave my possession?

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

Chuck,

     I have a neighbor who lives right across he street who is a police 

detective with the Killeen, Texas Police Department.  I have great respect 

for him and all other honest hard working police officers including you. 

However this RVNet is not the place to express your feelings.  It is 

designed for the exchange of ideas and information about the building of  RV 

series aircraft in an effort to assist builders and restorers and materiel 

along those lines is the only thing most of us want to see here.



Tracy Stone

Harker Heights, Tx

---

dale1rv6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

I thought a little homework was needed (listed below from Matronics). I

support Chuck and am glad he wrote. Tracy makes a good point, too.

Dale

RV6a 912+ hrs

Do not archive



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--

Travis

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 7

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Re: I know this is a mistake, but.....

 	  Bob Collins wrote: 	
		  

Similarly, when a proper authority asks for my pilot's certificate, what EXACTLY does it mean "present it for inspection?" Does that mean it can leave my possession? 	




For me, my agency, and the district court under which I operate (the same as the one you live in), it means that you will present it to me, in order to allow me to ascertain the legitimacy of the document (i.e. ... pilots license) you have presented to me.  This means that unfortunately, you will have to let me have a full hands on examination of the document.  YES, there are thousands of counterfeit documents out there, since you live in MN, go down to Lake Street (in Minneapolis) and ask around, you can buy ANY counterfeit document you want, it may surprise you that very real looking documents can be had for less than $200.00!  Getting into a tugging war with the local cops may cause alot more trouble than trying to make any point about the definition of "presenting."

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Re: I know this is a mistake, but.....

 	  Travis wrote: 	
		   Getting into a tugging war with the local cops may cause alot more trouble than trying to make any point about the definition of "presenting." 	




I agree, but that's also the "problem." Do I really HAVE a "right" (i.e. my right not to have to surrender my pilot's certificate) if there is a penalty for asserting it?



On only a tangential note: A few months ago, I was listening to an FAA guy speak at at the MN Wing of Van's Air Force (there's the required RV content) and he's a guy who did ramp checks. He assured us all that he's not "out to get" pilots, but then he told a story about driving around some hangars and a guy was pulling his plane out so he stopped and asked the guy, "going flying today?" And the guy said, "yep."  



THEN he identified himself as an FAA inspector and asked to see the guy's medical, which the guy didn't have.



Of COURSE the guy did it in this order because the only way to get the guy to admit to a coming violation was to wait to identify himself until after he had already established his intent to fly.  And then the guy wrote him up (I think). He hadn't committed any offense, but he  had admitted he was about to commit one.



Bottom line? I guess you just have to be very careful about what you volunteer in the way of information.



Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing AOPA devote as much effort to how to handle "routine" detaining as it has expended in how to handle the media and how to handle intercept procedures.



It's getting to the point where the easiest part of flying is.... the flying part.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

I thought it was a very timely response, considering the conversation over

the last couple of days.



Ignore what you are not interested in.  Delete it and move on. Sure,

sometimes we wander off on a tangent and stay there, but think of it as

friends who met because of an interest in RV's talking about other shared

interests. 



It will get back to RV's when someone starts talking about RV's. 



Use the delete key if you don't want to read it. Please don't try to stop

the conversation. Some of us are learning from it.



Terry

--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: Re: I know this is a mistake, but.....

 	  Terry Watson wrote: 	
		  Ignore what you are not interested in.  Delete it and move on. Sure,

sometimes we wander off on a tangent and stay there, but think of it as

friends who met because of an interest in RV's talking about other shared

interests. 	




I think it's important to note that a lot of people don't use the e-mail delivery method of the RV list. They use the Web interface. There, the discussions are threaded (such as at Doug Reeves' site), so you can look in an instant at what discussions are there and read the ones you want, and ignore the ones you don't.



Of course, people *do* get the list by e-mail and this frustration is also the result of having "two" lists -- the one that's delivered by e-mail, and the threaded discussion board  online.



The same is true for the "do not archive" police. That's a throwback to when there was only one delivery method for the RV List, and is irrelevant to the Forum format.



Perhaps a solution would be a checkbox option for the Web forum users that says "don't send to the e-mail people".  Is that possible, Matt?

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

michael.phil(at)ca.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

In FAA terms, presenting for inspection (handing them the certificate at the FAA representative or a law enfrocement representative) has a different meaning than "surrender" the certificate. The FAR's require that we hand over the certificate for inspection when asked by an FAA or law enforcement representative. A "surender" of the certificate means that you voluntarily relinguish the rights that are accorded to the certificate.

DO not archive

---- Travis <travishamblen(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	

 Bob Collins wrote:

 > 

 > Similarly, when a proper authority asks for my pilot's certificate, what EXACTLY does it mean "present it for inspection?" Does that mean it can leave my possession?

>

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

On 31 Aug 2007, at 14:32, Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 Terry Watson wrote:

> Ignore what you are not interested in.  Delete it and move on. Sure,

> sometimes we wander off on a tangent and stay there, but think of  

> it as

> friends who met because of an interest in RV's talking about other  

> shared

> interests.

 I think it's important to note that a lot of people don't use the e- 

 mail delivery method of the RV list. They use the Web interface.  

 There, the discussions are threaded (such as at Doug Reeves' site),  

 so you can look in an instant at what discussions are there and  

 read the ones you want, and ignore the ones you don't.

 Of course, people *do* get the list by e-mail and this frustration  

 is also the result of having "two" lists -- the one that's  

 delivered by e-mail, and the threaded discussion board  online.

 The same is true for the "do not archive" police. That's a  

 throwback to when there was only one delivery method for the RV  

 List, and is irrelevant to the Forum format.

 Perhaps a solution would be a checkbox option for the Web forum  

 users that says "don't send to the e-mail people".  Is that  

 possible, Matt?

I get the list by e-mail.  The web forum needs a checkbox option that  

the sender can check in the rare instance where the message is  

directly related to RVs.  Only these messages should go out on e- 

mail.  Any e-mail list recipients who want to see all the other  

messages could subscribe to the "Random conversations by RV people  

List".

It's weeks like this where I wonder why the heck I still subscribe to  

the RV-List.  It really seems to no longer be relevant to RVs.

Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

do not archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: I know this is a mistake, but.....

 	  khorton01(at)rogers.com wrote: 	
		  It's weeks like this where I wonder why the heck I still subscribe to  

the RV-List.  It really seems to no longer be relevant to RVs.

	




I understand what you're saying and the occasional thread makes a pretty good target, but the reality is -- and this is more clear if you use the Web interface -- that there's very little RV discussion taking place on the list. In fact in the last two weeks, there were only two -- conduit and rusting gear legs -- that generated more than 2 or 3 messages.



One of the interesting things about RV building, I think, is just about every question that could be asked has already been asked. The outstanding archive is proof of that.



I ask your question too, but it's usually after I look at the "today's posts" section of VAF and wonder why so many RVers post stuff there and no longer post to the RV List. In many cases, the same people "hang out" on both lists, but the contributions their far, far outweigh here.



I presume that people who might be inclined to post to this thread do so because -- RV List wise -- there's no other engaging thread taking place to satiate the desire for RV talk.



I've never quite figured out why that is. 



I made note of this in the Hotline a week or so ago (the last Hotline I was to edit, by the way) and the only response I got was a couple of guys who sent me emails that said, basically, "oh, come on..." but offered no explanation for the relative quiet on what used to be the primary source of RV discussion.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

On 31 Aug 2007, at 16:02, Bob Collins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net>

 khorton01(at)rogers.com wrote:

> It's weeks like this where I wonder why the heck I still subscribe to

> the RV-List.  It really seems to no longer be relevant to RVs.

>

 I understand what you're saying and the occasional thread makes a  

 pretty good target, but the reality is -- and this is more clear if  

 you use the Web interface -- that there's very little RV discussion  

 taking place on the list. In fact in the last two weeks, there were  

 only two -- conduit and rusting gear legs -- that generated more  

 than 2 or 3 messages.



..
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   I made note of this in the Hotline a week or so ago (the last  

 Hotline I was to edit, by the way) and the only response I got was  

 a couple of guys who sent me emails that said, basically, "oh, come  

 on..." but offered no explanation for the relative quiet on what  

 used to be the primary source of RV discussion.


	


I've been a subscriber since 1996.  At one time, the list was a buzz  

of RV related messages, with very few off topic messages.  Then there  

were a bunch of flame wars that drove many experienced contributors  

from the list.  Then web forums became more popular as more and more  

people got high speed internet access.  People seem to like the  

various features that a good web forum offers, so we lost another big  

bunch of people.



Now we seem to be at a point where most of the folks who want to  

discuss RV related issues choose one of many other places first,  

rather than have to wade through the low signal to noise ratio of  

this list.  Its sad in a way - sort of like watching a good friend  

die a slow, painful death from cancer.  I made a lot of good friends  

because of this list, but most of them have left for other places on  

the web.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

do not archive

RV4WGH(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

I agree Kevin.  I am about to unsubscribe to this list too.  All  I have done for weeks is scan the message subjects and hit delete.  Not  much need in continuing that.

  

 Wally Hunt

 RV-4 Finishing kit



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

But the problem  isn't that one thread is off the RV topic...the problem is people aren't posting  RV topics. Is it that we just don't have anything, or is it that we prefer to  post our RV stuff on VAF? One of the reasons, aside from time, that I stopped  doing the Hotline, is that there wasn't much use providing a monitor of all the  RV lists that are out there...most are pretty quiet. I'd have to say one of  my favorites right now is the SoCal YGroup). Maybe most of the subscribers  aren't builders...maybe they're already done. Dunno.

  

 Personally, I worked on the canopy on the RV-7A tip up  again today. I't s amazing how many times that thing has been on and off since I  did the big cut. I worked on the rear "window" today. I assume the rear edge of  the window sits forward of the spacer atop of that center piece....it's 1 1/8  aft the rear top skin. It confused me a bit because instructions said to cut 1  1/4" from the  "do not cut line," which would make the window interfere  with that spacer.

  

 The other question is what do you use for the backing  strip. do you just cut scrap pieces of .020?

  

 Do not archive

   

 title=http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982  href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982"  target=_blank>AOL.com.

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



[b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

Kevin, Please define web fourm. Examples?  

  BTW  I enjoy your web site.



Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    Then web forums became more popular as more and more  <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

  people got high speed internet access.  People seem to like the  

  various features that a good web forum offers, so we lost another  big  

  bunch of people.

Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

do not archive



	


Sherman Butler

RV-7a Wings

Idaho Falls

  [quote][b]

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: I know this is a mistake, but.....

Essentially a web forum is a web site where people can post and read  

messages.  In this respect it is very much like an e-mail list.  But  

you get to look at pretty colours, probably including lots of  

advertisements, and people seem to like that.  One big difference  

from an e-mail list is that the forum moderators can delete postings  

that are deemed to be offensive - this can be an advantage when flame  

wars start up.



The best RV-related example are the Van's Airforce Forums:



http://www.vansairforce.com/community/index.php



Kevin

On 4 Sep 2007, at 23:15, Sherman Butler wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kevin, Please define web fourm. Examples?

 BTW  I enjoy your web site.



 Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> wrote:

 Then web forums became more popular as more and more

 people got high speed internet access.  People seem to like the

 various features that a good web forum offers, so we lost another big

 bunch of people.

 Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)

 Ottawa, Canada

 http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

 do not archive





 Sherman Butler

 RV-7a Wings

 Idaho Falls

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