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Coils

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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: Coils

In a message dated 9/11/2007 2:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Its    very likely the coil, this problem had been occuring to earlier coils,    have

not heard much trouble since the 'leading GX' coils were replaced with    the 'TEK'

ones some time ago. Also there should be fitted or retrofitted    some heat insulating

washers under the coils and air cooling tubes to cool    the coils, details

in the installation instructions on dealers websites, or    in the series of

articles called 'jaba chat' off the jabiru website. The    'transistorised' parts

are inside the coil packs, just bolt in a    replacement coil. 	
  

  

 Greetings team,

  

 FWIW, both the coils that came on my 3300 failed. My engine is  33A756, purchased in January 05. One of the coils was dysfunctional at  the first start up, and the other failed within about the first 20 hours or  so. Both were way out of spec when measuring the secondary side with an ohm  meter. Clearly, they were bad and it wasn't a gap issue. Both came  from the factory installed with the phenolic washers installed behind them.  

  

 I replaced both of the failed coils at my expense, at roughly $160  each, and returned the failed coils to the dealer for warranty replacement.  That was well over a year ago and although I've mentioned it several times  to the dealer, Jabiru hasn't made good on either of the coils. In  fact, they've made no effort to respond whatsoever. I also had a bad oil  pressure sender which failied at about 30 hours, and that, too, was  replaced at my expense. I also returned the OP sender to Jabiru for  warranty replacement, but haven't heard a peep out of them. I had expected more  from Jabiru, but they seem to be following the "Rotaxian" model of customer  service.

  

 Interestingly, the replacement coils, although appearing to be manufactured  by the same vendor, were considerably different from the ones that came on the  engine. The new coils, obtained from two different Jab dealers, were larger  and had a different orientation of the coil wire where it exits the body of the  coil. I took pictures of the differences between the old and new coils and  showed them to the dealer from whom I purchased my engine, but it didn't seem to  help my case one iota. IOW, I'm convinced that Jabiru knew they had a problem  with the original coils that came on the engine. Otherwise, they wouldn't have  changed to the larger size. The replacement coils have operated flawlessly  for about 80 hours now, but I still keep a spare on the shelf just in  case.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

Europa N245E - Flying -107 hours

 



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  [quote][b]

Andy Silvester

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Marica, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Coils

Hi John and Listers,



Here's the situation with coils and Jabiru: warranty replacements were available for the 'Leading GX' types which were know to have a batch problem, some 3-4 years ago, and we as dealers made sure we replaced them as soon as the new ones were available. Since then, Jabiru haven't recognized any subsequent failures and refer to the following facts:

1. Engines are dyno-tested at the factory and leave in fully working order.

2. Coils break-down in over heating conditions so they recommend in their manuals for additional air cooling to the coils from the ram-air ducts.



OK, that's the 'Jabiru' line. Of course as dealers we try to manage the interface between the factory and customers, but if Jabiru refuse to honor a warranty claim, the issue is with us to either resolve or not. In John's case, I did my best to get the two coils changed under warranty, but Jabiru insisted it must have been an installation issue. My mistake was not to keep John fully informed of the situation and eventual decision, but it's often tricky to keep track of these things when they drag-on for months while we wait for a factory response. 



John, I will try to 'make-good' by offering you a $200 store - credit for parts, but bear in mind this is a 'Suncoast' gesture and not from Jabiru



Andy Silvester

Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.

japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: Coils

Andy, I knew you wee a standup guy when I first met you. Hurah for Andy and Suncoast! A man and company worthy of our business. Best regards, Bill of Georgia 

 

 --

mefriesen(at)mts.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Coils

I'm impressed! Thanks Andy for the care you give to Jabiru engine owners.



Mervin Friesen

--

jimlc

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Loveland, CO

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: Coils

"Jabiru  haven't recognized any subsequent failures 

and refer to the following  facts:

1. Engines are dyno-tested at the factory and leave in fully working  order.

2. Coils break-down in over heating conditions so they recommend in  their 

manuals for additional air cooling to the coils from the ram-air  ducts."

  

 And if they fail with the additional cooling?  So much for  honoring their warranty!  I'm not  impressed.

  

 Jim Crowder

 



 [quote]   --

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: Coils

In a message dated 9/12/2007 12:27:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jimlc(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     "Jabiru haven't recognized any subsequent    failures 

and refer to the following facts:

1. Engines are dyno-tested    at the factory and leave in fully working order.

2. Coils break-down in    over heating conditions so they recommend in their 

manuals for additional    air cooling to the coils from the ram-air ducts."

    

   And if they fail with the additional cooling?  So much for    honoring their warranty!  I'm not    impressed.

    

   Jim  Crowder

	


 

 As one who is in the warrantee service business in an unrelated product  field,  I want to stick up for the manufacturer. I frequently see  installations that are well outside the factory perameters but the owners are  quick to blame the manufacturer.   That is also happening in the  Experimental Aircraft world.

  

 Airflow through a Jab engine is the key issue, from my  experience.   Do it right one time and life is good.  Use the  recomended prop, shrouds, cooling tubes, oil cooler and cowling exits and be  rewarded.   If you dont, I suggest you  be prepared to spend your  own money on new parts.

  

 People like to criticise manufacturers like Rotax and Jabiru when there are  problems, as tho the engines come with perpetual care.    But  much of the complaining is undeserved, IMHO.   The Jab importers bend  over backwards to deal with problems,  it seems to me.

  

 Doug



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  [quote][b]

jimlc

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Loveland, CO

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Coils

Doug wrote:

 People like to criticize manufacturers like Rotax and Jabiru when there are  problems, as tho the engines come with perpetual care.    But  much of the complaining is undeserved, IMHO.   The Jab importers bend  over backwards to deal with problems,  it seems to me."

  

  

 I have no complaint personally, but selling  a product with a warranty and then saying we tested it when produced and since  it will fail if not properly installed, then we consider any failure to be the  fault of the installation, is to say we do not warrant  it.  Parts can fail for other reasons.  In practice we  may just need to show that we did install it properly, or if we are lucky we may  not ever need to test their interpretation.  However, what they are saying  is not impressive.

  

 For my part, I am forewarned  and I plan to take extensive pictures of my installation before  even starting it up and of course I will take great pains to do it right  following to the best of my ability factory instructions, as I am now  doing.

  

 Jim Crowder   



 [quote]   --

TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Coils

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:58:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  OK,    that's the 'Jabiru' line. 	
  

 Hi Andy and all,

  

 Just so everybody will know, I'm not in any way trying to slam you or  Suncoast. My previous comments were directed at Jabiru. Your  support has been excellent. Jabiru, on the other hand, leaves a bit to be  desired. Thanks for your generous offer of the $200 credit, but I won't be  taking you up on that because I don't think it's right for you to have to dig  into your own pocket to make up for a shortcoming of the factory. This  issue is between me and Jabiru, but I don't hold out much hope that they will  make good on it and that will certainly factor in to whether or not I purchase  another Jabiru in the future should the need arise.

  

 I am surprised that Jabiru refuses to warranty my coils for two reasons.  One, the left coil was failed at the first start up. It was way out of spec on  the secondary side when measured with an ohm meter (Fluke 87) per Jabiru  instructions. This clearly wasn't my fault since I'd never run the engine before  the discovery of the failed coil. If this coil failed due to heat, it failed  when the factory did the initial run-in. My engine was installed per Jabiru  guidelines and the cooling tubes were installed from the head intake ducts to  the coils per Jabiru instructions. I have not noted any discoloration, checking  or any other signs that the coils were overheated.

  

 Secondly, the second coil failed at about 30 hours. While this one could  have indeed failed due to engine heat, I don't think that is the case because  nothing has changed in my set up and the coils currently installed on the engine  have been there since 0 hours and 30 hours respectively. If there was a heat  issue in my setup these other coils would have also probably failed. One  has 107+ hours on it and the other has 77+ hours on it and the engine runs like  a top.

  

 When I got the replacement coils, two from you and the other from  Pete, (I keep a spare on the shelf now just in case) they were considerably  different from the coils that came on the engine. The new  coils were not only larger, but had a different orientation of the coil  wire where it exits the body of the coil. They did appear to be from the same  vendor, though. It seems clear to me that Jabiru knew they had a problem with  the original, smaller coils and that prompted the change to the new, larger  coil. I don't understand their Rotaxian attitude, though. All I'm asking is for  them to make good on the warranty agreement they provided when I purchased my  engine.

  

 FWIW, I pretty much have my cooling issues under control on all but the  hottest days, and then I only see elevated temps in CHT's in climb on the  left side. I am sourcing a manometer and I'll do some measuring and see where  I'm at. My guess is I have adequate cooling flow, per Jabiru parameters already.  The real question is if I do indeed have adequate cooling flow, and I'm able to  prove it, will Jabiru make good on the failed coils?

 I won't be a holdin' my breath on that one.....

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

Europa N245E - Flying - 107 hours

 

  



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  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Coils

In a message dated 9/12/2007 10:45:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jimlc(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   I have no complaint personally, but    selling a product with a warranty and then saying we tested it when produced    and since it will fail if not properly installed, then we consider any failure    to be the fault of the installation, is to say we do not warrant    it.  Parts can fail for other reasons.  In practice we    may just need to show that we did install it properly, or if we are lucky we    may not ever need to test their interpretation.  However, what they are    saying is not impressive.

    

   For my part, I am forewarned    and I plan to take extensive pictures of my installation before    even starting it up and of course I will take great pains to do it right    following to the best of my ability factory instructions, as I am now    doing.

	


 

  

 I think some distinction needs to be made between individual part defects  and damage caused by installation.  In the case of the coils, if it can be  demonstrated that high temps fail the coils and at correct temps they last for  ever, then there is some probablility that if TWO coils fail immediatly on the  same engine, and the failure rate on that particular batch was very low; then  one should conclude that installation had something to do with it; ie high  temps.

  

 It would then be up to the owner to justify how his installation DID NOT  cause high temps.

  

 But another problem has to do with the age of the engine.   Homebuilders often buy their engines too early in the build and aging on the  shelf causes damage.  That is why the warrantees to not start when the  engine is first run.   That and other situations can cause failures  that ARE NOT the factory's problem.

  

 I would just add that a good relationship with the dealer is essential for  good warrantee support.  Some folks will try to save a few bucks by  internet shopping but lose the advantage of a friendly dealer.   I  know all the Jab dealers in the USA and they are extremely helpful.    They all seem to go the extra mile to help a customer who asks for help.

  

 Just an observation from experience: People in the service business cannot  resist someone who ASKS for their help , perhaps even begs.   But  customers who try to dump all their emotions on a dealer and "DEMAND  SATISFACTION" can find themselves in a real pickle.   Wether a  passive-aggressive response or a  "pissed aggressive" response  from a dealer,  the result is biting the hand that feeds you.

  

 I think it is more important to have a dealer on your side than to do  exactly what a manual says.     Manuals simply cannot  contain all necessary wisdom.

  

 Just a thought or two.

  

 doug koenigsberg   



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  [quote][b]

Andy Silvester

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Marica, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Coils

All you guys are making sensible and valid points - thanks. I re-read my original response about John's two coil failures and perhaps should clarify. There really is no 'Jabiru Policy' about what, and what isn't agreed as a warranty replacement. Yes, there is a warranty document which says that parts and labor are warranted  - and I think Jabiru's warranty which DOES start from first-run and not the date of purchase is fairer than most. 'Obvious' mechanical failures and breakages are of course warranted where there can be no question about the way the failure occurred. However, people do overheat coils, which fail and they claim under warranty. Similarly with overheating heads. Jabiru have seen all these before and tend to be ready with a less than favorable answer, so for us dealers, the onus is with us to go against the flow and 'prove' the operator or installation wasn't at fault. In John's case I obviously didn't do a good enough job providing the proof, because of course his were genuine warranty issues. It was a while ago and I can't remember specifically, but I probably caught the Jabiru factory guy on an off day or just after he's rejected someone else's claim for free replacements - who knows? 

What I'm saying is that ultimately, the decision on the replacement of parts which could have been mis-used is both subjective and somewhat inconsistent. People are involved in the decision process and so it's fallible. I'm not defending or criticising necessarily - it's just the way it is. I'd be interested to learn how any small company (Jabiru isn't Lycoming) can do it differently and stay in business. They obviously can't honor every claim which is presented, because a good number are due to abuse of the engine through poor installation. 

John's claim is reasonable so I'll have another go at Jabiru with the hope of success this time.



Andy Silvester

Suncoast Sportplanes Inc.

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