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DAVELEIKAM(at)wi.rr.com
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 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Tim,
What did you hear about this?
Dave Leikam
40496
do not archive
[quote][b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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I didn't get much detail, but it sounds like it was that famous
first-customer-flying RV-10, now painted with a dog pawprint, that
got dropped in hard on landing, but no fatals or anything.
No details that I've seen for myself but it sounded to be pretty
smacked up. Not sure if it went reported or not, regardless of
amount of metal bent, but it hasn't shown up in the database.
Everything was 2nd or 3rd hand though, so the picture isn't clear,
and I'm not sure if there's anything we can learn from it that will
help us....other than the obvious....build it well, fly it well.
Pictures of it in paint
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/024535.html
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dave Leikam wrote:
| Quote: | Tim,
What did you hear about this?
Dave Leikam
40496
do not archive
|
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Interesting...
I know nothing about the incident but I actually know something
about this plane.
While at my home airport (SBP) in California I saw an RV-10
parked in our transient restaurant parking. I was very excited to see
one in person and it looked kinda nice from a distance. As I got closer
my opinion changed considerably. First the good news... The wheel pants,
gear legs and the panel were very nice. Now the rest of the story...
The fit & finish was about the worst I had ever seen on an RV.
The fit around the cowl was horrendous, with several different type
screws used with different type washers and the cowl screws were not in
a row, some were offset high and low. The baggage door was not aligned
well and there was filler between some metal pieces that was only
partially filled and partially left "mounded" then painted over. It
looked awful!. The wing tips were not cut back to match the trailing
edge of the ailerons. (I have not started that part of the build yet but
I understand they should line up).
By far the worst part and something I thought was a real danger
were the back sides of the fiberglass tips to the horizontal stabilizer.
They were left hollow, rough cut and very flexible. I was actually
horrified that this portion of the build was not completed. I could not
imagine that that was airworthy. As you can guess the fit of the doors
was not acceptable to me but they were not that far off. And of course
there was complete cracking around each window. I did end up taking some
detailed photos of the plane and keep them filed in my "RV Pictures"
folder under the file name "Ugly RV-10." I don't intend to be cruel but
the attention to detail was completely lacking and all that hard work of
construction was wasted by not spending 200-400 more hours on doing
things right. One of my first thoughts was if the appearance items look
this bad I wonder what it's like in places you don't easily see.
As I was finishing my photo shoot the owner came out from the
restaurant and we had the opportunity to chat. She was an older lady
(~65) that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like.
She was based at Santa Paula Airport (SZP) about 70 miles south of me.
That day she was giving a hangar neighbor acquaintance of mine a ride to
SZP to pick up his beautiful Cessna 170 from service. I remember
thinking to myself... well at least the plane has two pilots onboard in
case there is an "issue."
Please note I do not wish to be malicious but the plane had
obvious flaws in craftsmanship. Like most incidents it's usually pilot
problems before plane problems.
Attached are some photos from the visit.
Robin
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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This plane was built by John Nys who is in Texas. He has built several
RV-10's and is one of the 'build for hire' gang. He had a couple of his
plane (at) OSH in '06 and they displayed the same workmanship issues noted
in Robins e-mail. He boasted to some that he could build a plane in 3
months. To be fair I understand that he also built/assisted in the
construction of Alex D.'s -10 which is cosmetically better.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Max wrote:
[quote]
"Alabama/Mississippi or the like"???
If you don't know where she purchased it, I would leave statements like this
out of your comments. You insult the many careful, diligent builders in
those areas. I know of many great builders from "Alabama/Mississippi or the
like."
That said, it would have been good if you had been diligent enough to get
the exact location so no one else would be duped by a lousy builder.
Max
--
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Max,
I was NOT denigrating builders in Alabama/Mississippi I was
recalling my 4 minute conversation with the new owner. I have no way of
recalling EXACTLY what state she purchased the -10 but I do believe it
was the south (she definitely did not say Texas). Not sure what your
beef is exactly with that statement but I was doing my best to fill in
some of the gaps regarding the aircraft in question. This is not an
official FAA report, it's the RV-List.
Robin
Do Not Archive
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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I'll always remember looking at that plane unpainted at OSH, with
a wire bundle running from the panel to the tunnel near the brake
lines, with the wires clearly laying on the sheet metal edge
of the tunnel cover....with no wire chafing protection at all.
That was just the start of it, but I just kind of figured some
day it would be an electrical fire that we'd hear about. Especially
since very little of the sheet metal edging had much deburring done
to it.
On the up side, there are many very fine examples of craftsmanship
to look at these days, and many builders are taking the time to
make them far better than any production plane.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Robin Marks wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting...
I know nothing about the incident but I actually know something
about this plane.
While at my home airport (SBP) in California I saw an RV-10
parked in our transient restaurant parking. I was very excited to see
one in person and it looked kinda nice from a distance. As I got closer
my opinion changed considerably. First the good news... The wheel pants,
gear legs and the panel were very nice. Now the rest of the story...
The fit & finish was about the worst I had ever seen on an RV.
The fit around the cowl was horrendous, with several different type
screws used with different type washers and the cowl screws were not in
a row, some were offset high and low. The baggage door was not aligned
well and there was filler between some metal pieces that was only
partially filled and partially left "mounded" then painted over. It
looked awful!. The wing tips were not cut back to match the trailing
edge of the ailerons. (I have not started that part of the build yet but
I understand they should line up).
By far the worst part and something I thought was a real danger
were the back sides of the fiberglass tips to the horizontal stabilizer.
They were left hollow, rough cut and very flexible. I was actually
horrified that this portion of the build was not completed. I could not
imagine that that was airworthy. As you can guess the fit of the doors
was not acceptable to me but they were not that far off. And of course
there was complete cracking around each window. I did end up taking some
detailed photos of the plane and keep them filed in my "RV Pictures"
folder under the file name "Ugly RV-10." I don't intend to be cruel but
the attention to detail was completely lacking and all that hard work of
construction was wasted by not spending 200-400 more hours on doing
things right. One of my first thoughts was if the appearance items look
this bad I wonder what it's like in places you don't easily see.
As I was finishing my photo shoot the owner came out from the
restaurant and we had the opportunity to chat. She was an older lady
(~65) that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like.
She was based at Santa Paula Airport (SZP) about 70 miles south of me.
That day she was giving a hangar neighbor acquaintance of mine a ride to
SZP to pick up his beautiful Cessna 170 from service. I remember
thinking to myself... well at least the plane has two pilots onboard in
case there is an "issue."
Please note I do not wish to be malicious but the plane had
obvious flaws in craftsmanship. Like most incidents it's usually pilot
problems before plane problems.
Attached are some photos from the visit.
Robin
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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and to think I worry if a rivet incorrectly squeezed will be a problem!
---
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LarryRosen
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Go easy, I am sure he meant a southern gulf state. So testing my
geography that would be Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisianan, and
Texas. There are many ways to read something.
Larry
do not archive
Max wrote:
[quote]
"Alabama/Mississippi or the like"???
If you don't know where she purchased it, I would leave statements like this
out of your comments. You insult the many careful, diligent builders in
those areas. I know of many great builders from "Alabama/Mississippi or the
like."
That said, it would have been good if you had been diligent enough to get
the exact location so no one else would be duped by a lousy builder.
Max
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http> |
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Also TruTrak's -10.
--
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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John is in the Tulsa area.
--
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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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lol....at least you can get a chuckle out of it!!
---
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scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Shouldn't an incident such as this be reported on the NTSB?
It sounds like this occured at least 3-4 weeks ago.
I also saw this aircraft at Oshkosh. Makes me feel bad when people spend 1500 hours building and don't put in the last 50-150 hours to get the proper fit/finish. But that is the joy of experimental aircraft. Rutan never did a great job finishing his planes either. I don't know if any of them had interiors and you could always see through the paint. But his mission required great weight savings.
Off subject: Here is a link to the trailer for "Thunder over Reno". I've heard from people who watched it last week that it had a horrible story with below average acting. The flying shots sounded cool. I just watched the trailer and could tell the acting was not Harrison Ford quality. I'll go see it though.
http://www.thunderoverreno.com/index2.html
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
---
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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That’s the problem with build for hire. Profit outweighs pride in workmanship.
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 1:15 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-10 Incident
Shouldn't an incident such as this be reported on the NTSB?
It sounds like this occured at least 3-4 weeks ago.
I also saw this aircraft at Oshkosh. Makes me feel bad when people spend 1500 hours building and don't put in the last 50-150 hours to get the proper fit/finish. But that is the joy of experimental aircraft. Rutan never did a great job finishing his planes either. I don't know if any of them had interiors and you could always see through the paint. But his mission required great weight savings.
Off subject: Here is a link to the trailer for "Thunder over Reno". I've heard from people who watched it last week that it had a horrible story with below average acting. The flying shots sounded cool. I just watched the trailer and could tell the acting was not Harrison Ford quality. I'll go see it though.
http://www.thunderoverreno.com/index2.html
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
---
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Uhh...
I understand the point you're making but I have to point out that pride in workmanship and profit are not exclusive.
We've all seen some pretty poorly built amateur-only projects.
The one doing the hiring has final control over workmanship, via the checkbook if nothing else. I imagine the buyer got what she wanted. What her expectations were we'll probably never know.
do not archive
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
40394 (mine), started the engine last weekend, should be flying before October.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Incident
That’s the problem with build for hire. Profit outweighs pride in workmanship.
Do not archive
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Sorry Dave, should have been clearer. I don’t lump you into the same “under the radar” build for hire shops. My apologies.
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:22 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Incident
Uhh...
I understand the point you're making but I have to point out that pride in workmanship and profit are not exclusive.
We've all seen some pretty poorly built amateur-only projects.
The one doing the hiring has final control over workmanship, via the checkbook if nothing else. I imagine the buyer got what she wanted. What her expectations were we'll probably never know.
do not archive
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
40394 (mine), started the engine last weekend, should be flying before October.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Incident
That’s the problem with build for hire. Profit outweighs pride in workmanship.
Do not archive [quote] ; - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[/b]_; --> http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com</================== [b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: RV-10 Incident |
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Incidents, Accidents, NTSB reporting procedures. No one is addressing your post.
I had a close friend involved in an incident/accident where the medical bills went over $1,000,000 to just one crewmember. It was an education that the FAA does not want to have to reported to the NTSB just like pilots don’t. Lots of happenings do not get reported, others like prop strikes are never documented so future purchasers don’t know.
The famous FAA words “you did not intend to fly, did you?.... Did you!”. Oh no sir. Then it was not flying related and no need to report in writing.. Thanks for asking.
Sixteen of us who were tangentially involved were sequestered in a major corporate conference room until the final report was finished. Everyone signed affidavits, then we watched as all but one single copy was shredded. Seems some twist in the Freedom of Information Act allows such a process. The corporation shut the program down and sold the assets. I bought them and resold them to a well informed buyer and close friend. Number of spectators to the happening. Several hundred – maybe a thousand.
Now, we are not even starting the discussion of insurance coverage and increasing costs… are we. You would be shocked at how the bills were paid. No, it was not by an aviation insurance policy. The single occurrence medical does not even come close.
Many of the engines that have been rebuilt for RV-10s have similar checkered pasts.
Do not Archive
John Cox
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:15 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-10 Incident
Shouldn't an incident such as this be reported on the NTSB?
It sounds like this occured at least 3-4 weeks ago.
I also saw this aircraft at Oshkosh. Makes me feel bad when people spend 1500 hours building and don't put in the last 50-150 hours to get the proper fit/finish. But that is the joy of experimental aircraft. Rutan never did a great job finishing his planes either. I don't know if any of them had interiors and you could always see through the paint. But his mission required great weight savings.
Off subject: Here is a link to the trailer for "Thunder over Reno". I've heard from people who watched it last week that it had a horrible story with below average acting. The flying shots sounded cool. I just watched the trailer and could tell the acting was not Harrison Ford quality. I'll go see it though.
http://www.thunderoverreno.com/index2.html
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:32:19 AM
Subject: Re: RV-10 Incident
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
I'll always remember looking at that plane unpainted at OSH, with
a wire bundle running from the panel to the tunnel near the brake
lines, with the wires clearly laying on the sheet metal edge
of the tunnel cover....with no wire chafing protection at all.
That was just the start of it, but I just kind of figured some
day it would be an electrical fire that we'd hear about. Especially
since very little of the sheet metal edging had much deburring done
to it.
On the up side, there are many very fine examples of craftsmanship
to look at these days, and many builders are taking the time to
make them far better than any production plane.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Robin Marks wrote:
> Interesting...
> I know nothing about the incident but I actually know something
> about this plane.
> While at my home airport (SBP) in California I saw an RV-10
> parked in our transient restaurant parking. I was very excited to see
> one in person and it looked kinda nice from a distance. As I got closer
> my opinion changed considerably. First the good news... The wheel pants,
> gear legs and the panel were very nice. Now the rest of the story...
> The fit & finish was about the worst I had ever seen on an RV.
> The fit around the cowl was horrendous, with several different type
> screws used with different type washers and the cowl screws were not in
> a row, some were offset high and low. The baggage door was not aligned
> well and there was filler between some metal pieces that was only
> partially filled and partially left "mounded" then painted over. It
> looked awful!. The wing tips were not cut back to match the trailing
> edge of the ailerons. (I have not started that part of the build yet but
> I understand they should line up).
> By far the worst part and something I thought was a real danger
> were the back sides of the fiberglass tips to the horizontal stabilizer.
> They were left hollow, rough cut and very flexible. I was actually
> horrified that this portion of the build was not completed. I could not
> imagine that that was airworthy. As you can guess the fit of the doors
> was not acceptable to me but they were not that far off. And of course
> there was complete cracking around each window. I did end up taking some
> detailed photos of the plane and keep them filed in my "RV Pictures"
> folder under the file name "Ugly RV-10." I don't intend to be cruel but
> the attention to detail was completely lacking and all that hard work of
> construction was wasted by not spending 200-400 more hours on doing
> things right. One of my first thoughts was if the appearance items look
> this bad I wonder what it's like in places you don't easily see.
> As I was finishing my photo shoot the owner came out from the
> restaurant and we had the opportunity to chat. She was an older lady
> (~65) that had purchased the plane from Alabama/Mississippi or the like.
> She was based at Santa Paula Airport (SZP) about 70 miles south of me.
> That day she was giving a hangar neighbor acquaintance of mine a ride to
> SZP to pick up his beautiful Cessna 170 from service. I remember
> thinking to myself... well at least the plane has two pilots onboard in
> case there is an "issue."
> Please note I do not wish to be malicious but the plane had
> obvious flaws in craftsmanship. Like most incidents it's usually pilot
> problems before plane problems.
> Attached are some photos from the visit.
>
> Robin
>
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