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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50) |
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On Sep 19, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Ron Davis wrote:
| Quote: |
You're 0 for 2. Bernoulli's principal has nothing to do with the
line restriction to the bottle and airplane wings use the Coanda
effect, not Bernoulli. Get out your calculator and calculate the
amount of "vacuum" that must exist to lift a wing with loading of
50 psf. Wings can't make that much lift with Bernoulli.
|
Generation of lift is a very interesting topic. I can imagine a
thread on how lift is produced consuming lots of bandwidth as well as
producing a fair amount of heat. (These kinds of things tend to
produce more heat than light on the subject.) Still, it might be both
interesting and enlightening at some level.
OTOH, I suspect that there will also be much testosterone and ruffled
feathers.
Regardless, I think that the topic is really interesting as there are
several non-obvious physical properties at work and I would like to
discuss my ideas on the matter with someone.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50) |
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There being 144 square inches in a square foot, it'd only take a third of
one PSI to do the job.
That having been said, I concur that Mr. Newton does most of the work with
only a little help from Mr. Bernoulli. Although I'd claim that the actual
lifting is done by the Magnus Effect -- the Coanda Effect only explains how
the Magnus Effect gets it's "grip" on the wing when doing the lifting.
I was always amused by that diagram in the book that shows the two tiny
people, one walking on the top of a wing and one walking on the bottom,
where the one on the top has to walk farther and therefore walks faster.
The part they leave off is that tiny person walking on the top of the wing
is aggressively flung downward when reaching the rear of the wing, thereby
generating an equal and opposite upward flingingness.
Perhaps that last bit is too violent for today's schoolbooks. 
"And why does an airfoil produce the Magnus Effect?" I foolishly asked once.
Someone wiser than I pointed out, "We call it an airfoil BECAUSE it
produces the effect."
Jon
PS. I've been told that dragging Coanda and Magnus out during the oral
portion of a checkride is the best mechanism discovered to date for annoying
the examiner into thinking you're a smartass.
| Quote: | From: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>
Reply-To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:10:36 -0700
On Sep 19, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Ron Davis wrote:
>
>
>You're 0 for 2. Bernoulli's principal has nothing to do with the line
>restriction to the bottle and airplane wings use the Coanda effect, not
>Bernoulli. Get out your calculator and calculate the amount of "vacuum"
>that must exist to lift a wing with loading of 50 psf. Wings can't make
>that much lift with Bernoulli.
Generation of lift is a very interesting topic. I can imagine a thread on
how lift is produced consuming lots of bandwidth as well as producing a
fair amount of heat. (These kinds of things tend to produce more heat than
light on the subject.) Still, it might be both interesting and
enlightening at some level.
OTOH, I suspect that there will also be much testosterone and ruffled
feathers.
Regardless, I think that the topic is really interesting as there are
several non-obvious physical properties at work and I would like to
discuss my ideas on the matter with someone.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
|
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50) |
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In a message dated 9/20/2007 8:02:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonboede(at)hotmail.com writes:
I always think in terms of a water skier. He "planes" on the water and a "airplane" - - well planes on the air. But I'm just a simple guy with a simple mind. And though I've heard of Newton and Bernoulli, this is the first I've heard of Magnus and Coanda. "Flingingness"???
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jonboede(at)hotmail.com>
There being 144 square inches in a square foot, it'd only take a third of
one PSI to do the job.
That having been said, I concur that Mr. Newton does most of the work with
only a little help from Mr. Bernoulli. Although I'd claim that the actual
lifting is done by the Magnus Effect -- the Coanda Effect only explains how
the Magnus Effect gets it's "grip" on the wing when doing the lifting.
I was always amused by that diagram in the book that shows the two tiny
people, one walking on the top of a wing and one walking on the bottom,
where the one on the top has to walk farther and therefore walks faster.
The part they leave off is that tiny person walking on the top of the wing
is aggressively flung downward when reaching the rear of the wing, thereby
generating an equal and opposite upward flingingness.
Perhaps that last bit is too violent for today's schoolbooks.
"And why does an airfoil produce the Magnus Effect?" I foolishly asked once.
Someone wiser than I pointed out, "We call it an airfoil BECAUSE it
produces the effect."
Jon
PS. I've been told that dragging Coanda and Magnus out during the oral
portion of a checkride is the best mechanism discovered to date for annoying
the examiner into thinking you're a smartass.
| Quote: | From: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>
Reply-To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:10:36 -0700
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>
On Sep 19, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Ron Davis wrote:
>--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts(at)hotmail.com>
>
>You're 0 for 2. Bernoulli's principal has nothing to do with the line
>restriction to the bottle and airplane wings use the Coanda effect, not
>Bernoulli. Get out your calculator and calculate the amount of "vacuum"
>that must exist to lift a wing with loading of 50 psf. Wings can't make
>that much lift with Bernoulli.
Generation of lift is a very interesting topic. I can imagine a thread on
how lift is produced consuming lots of bandwidth as well as producing a
fair amount of heat. (These kinds of things tend to produce more heat than
light on the subject.) Still, it might be both interesting and
enlightening at some level.
OTOH, I suspect that there will also be much testosterone and ruffled
feathers.
Regardless, I think that the topic is really interesting as there are
several non-obvious physical properties at work and I would like to
discuss my ideas on the matter with someone.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Lift (was: MF'ing air system! Yak-50) |
|
|
On Sep 19, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Jon Boede wrote:
| Quote: |
There being 144 square inches in a square foot, it'd only take a
third of one PSI to do the job.
That having been said, I concur that Mr. Newton does most of the
work with only a little help from Mr. Bernoulli. Although I'd
claim that the actual lifting is done by the Magnus Effect -- the
Coanda Effect only explains how the Magnus Effect gets it's "grip"
on the wing when doing the lifting.
I was always amused by that diagram in the book that shows the two
tiny people, one walking on the top of a wing and one walking on
the bottom, where the one on the top has to walk farther and
therefore walks faster. The part they leave off is that tiny
person walking on the top of the wing is aggressively flung
downward when reaching the rear of the wing, thereby generating an
equal and opposite upward flingingness.
Perhaps that last bit is too violent for today's schoolbooks.
"And why does an airfoil produce the Magnus Effect?" I foolishly
asked once. Someone wiser than I pointed out, "We call it an
airfoil BECAUSE it produces the effect."
Jon
PS. I've been told that dragging Coanda and Magnus out during the
oral portion of a checkride is the best mechanism discovered to
date for annoying the examiner into thinking you're a smartass.
|
Well, I have been considering it from a quantum/statistical point of
view, i.e. by the behavior of the individual air molecules and how
the mean free path increases above the wing as a result of
"shadowing". (I'm not sure how better to describe it.) I can "see"
the pressure gradient as a decrease or increase in the mean free path
of each molecule and its result on the mean velocity vector for the
air mass as a whole as a result of increased or decreased numbers of
collisions. This also lets me visualize the pressure distribution is
a function of the mean number of collisions between the surface and
the individual air molecules. It is difficult to describe but easy to
picture in my mind. I haven't heard of anyone approaching the problem
this way before. It makes it very clear in my mind as to how the
whole air mass ends up with a "downward" change in the mean velocity
vector and then Isaac does the rest.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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