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sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

It is acceptable/practical to use high temp. nylon cable ties under the 

cowling?  Will a DAR accept  the use of these to secure wires to the 

engine mount tubes?

--

Tom Sargent, RV-6A, electrical system.

kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:07 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

I used regular zip ties on my airplane and the DAR had no problem with that. 

After 6 years and 500 hours, they have not given any trouble.



Kyle Boatright

---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

Regardless of the temps, it is not acceptable to use cable ties on an

engine mount tube. Oil and dirt get under it and start wearing the tube.

You need a pair of Adel clamps.

KM

A&P/IA

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It is acceptable/practical to use high temp. nylon cable ties under the

 cowling?  Will a DAR accept  the use of these to secure wires to the

 engine mount tubes?

 --

 Tom Sargent, RV-6A, electrical system.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Regardless of the temps, it is not acceptable to use cable ties on an

 engine mount tube. Oil and dirt get under it and start wearing the tube.

 You need a pair of Adel clamps.


	


True.



However, the regular ol' nylon zip ties in the engine compartment of my 

RV-6, some of which are on mount tubes, were not only passed by the DAR, 

but have stood up just fine for eight years and 825 hours and have 

caused no damage.



Maybe it is because oil and dirt are not allowed in the engine 

compartment of my plane.  



Sam Buchanan

kahuna

Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

I had tie wraps of unknown substance cut into my engine mount of my rv-6 in ~800 hours.

 It cut through the powder coating and into the steel.

 I do not know what the magic formula was for this to happen.

 Too tight? Too much movement? Too loose? Sharp edge tie wraps? I dunno. But Ill never use them again and they are forbiden on the heavies.

 My heavies mechanic buddy tried to worn me about this when he looked over my fwf before my first flight. I blew him off and said "yeah right. Whatever. That plastic aint gonna cut into that steel."

 I was wrong! It did. And I learned my lesson. Listen to the guy that sees this stuff a lot. 

 Mike

 

 [img]cid:1__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>

 

 

       "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com> 

 Sent by: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com 

09/17/2007 11:25 AM  Please respond to

 rv-list(at)matronics.com

  
 
 
    [img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 To

[img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 <rv-list(at)matronics.com>  [img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 cc

[img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

   [img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 Subject

[img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]

 RE: high temp cable ties    [img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img][img]cid:3__=08BBF9CADFC8D4498f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]    

 --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>

 

 Me too.  I would stay away from using them to hold your exhaust up though.

 

 Brian Kraut

 Engineering Alternatives, Inc.

 www.engalt.com

 

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wskimike(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

You can use tie wraps if you use them properly. You  are suppose to use one to go around both the structure and the cable and don't  tighten it but then use another tie wrap wraped around the first tie wrap in  between the cable and structure to tighten the first tie wrap. If installed  properly, it won't cut into anything.

  

 Mike

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n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

Or alternatively you put one around the structure loose to start with and the second around your cable and then through the first tie wrap.  Then tighten them.  

           

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of wskimike

 Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:08 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: high temp cable ties  

  

     

You can use tie wraps if you use them properly. You are suppose to use one to go around both the structure and the cable and don't tighten it but then use another tie wrap wraped around the first tie wrap in between the cable and structure to tighten the first tie wrap. If installed properly, it won't cut into anything.  

    

   

    

Mike  

  [quote]    

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

Kyle - Each builder gets to make these choices personally.  It could be

wrong for builders to assign responsibility or assume the DARs role was

to do their final "binding" inspection on your project build.  That is

one of the reasons the EAA offers "No Charge" progress inspections to

members to provide an added additional sets of eyes to the build

(Initial, Recurrent, Final) through the EAA Tech Counselor Program.



The DAR role (to my understanding) is primarily the review of

documentation and submission for the all important FAA documents.  For

many, they can confirm the DARs walk around was only cursory in scope.

I would love to hear of DARS that accept liability for a final

inspection.



As an A&P working for a regional air carrier, SFAR 88 is real and a

definitive FAA effort to assign an explanation and corrective action to

TWA Flight #800.  That is to say "other than those conspiracy theorists

who claim the US Navy brought it down".  It remains the most costly,

time consuming FAA accident investigation in US Aviation history.

Compliance is a bitch.



I would propose to builders considering "zip ties" that there are indeed

areas where other attachments are recommended (and more valid) on TCDS

Aircraft and possibility a great starting point for Owner Build and

Maintained Aircraft as well.  When ties do give trouble, the prudent

builder has thought it out and chosen wisely.



Glad your specific DAR did more than many and that you are flying

happily after so many hours.  I cannot speak for DARs.  As a Tech

Advisor, I try to point out other alternatives, enlighten builders on

potential avenues, encourage broad questions and further investigation,

and try to promote safety in the build.  Tom's question was "is it

acceptable/practical?"  Not much is easier than a zip. The builder

decides. He is the manufacturer and the standard to maintain. I try to

enlighten on the potential consequences. Adel's are most often seen on

Air Carrier fleets due to insurance reasons.  They come in various

flavors (color and composition) due to environmental concerns that are

"known".



John Cox

EAA TC #5242

A&P/IA



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

John Cox put it very well. As the manufacturer, you can do what you want.

A DAR not finding fault with something does NOT mean it is a good practice

or even safe.  I can tell you that as an IA, every Tywrap found attached

around  the engine mount on a TC aircraft will be written up as a

discrepancy. Your plane, your experiment, you can do as you choose, at

your own risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

>

> Regardless of the temps, it is not acceptable to use cable ties on an

> engine mount tube. Oil and dirt get under it and start wearing the tube.

> You need a pair of Adel clamps.



 True.



 However, the regular ol' nylon zip ties in the engine compartment of my

 RV-6, some of which are on mount tubes, were not only passed by the DAR,

 but have stood up just fine for eight years and 825 hours and have

 caused no damage.



 Maybe it is because oil and dirt are not allowed in the engine

 compartment of my plane.  



 Sam Buchanan

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

WRONG!  Tie wraps will cut steel engine mount tubing regardless of what

you have under them. It is just a matter of time. If you don't have a

cushion under the tiewrap to prevent it from chafing, it will chafe. But,

if you want to have to occasionally replace or reweld your engine mount,

be my guest. Just remember that the type certificated industry had about

40 years head start on the experimental category in figuring out how to

screw up a perfectly good airplane. You just have the freedom to relearn

others mistakes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You can use tie wraps if you use them properly. You are suppose to use one

 to go around both the structure and the cable and don't tighten it but

 then use another tie wrap wraped around the first tie wrap in between the

 cable and structure to tighten the first tie wrap. If installed properly,

 it won't cut into anything.



 Mike

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

Anyone ever heard of   *Koroseal* (as sold by AC-Spruce and others) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lacing.php

  

 That is the product I  would use in the engine compartment instead of tie-wraps, based on  input from much smarter people then myself.

  

 Just because we Experimenters can do  whatever they want does not necessarily make it a necessarily  great move...

 [quote]   ---

walter(at)tondu.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

On 09/19  4:43, Kelly McMullen wrote:



 > WRONG!  Tie wraps will cut steel engine mount tubing regardless of what

 > you have under them. It is just a matter of time. If you don't have a



I wrap engine mount tubing with 3 to 4 wraps of self-sticking silicone

tape and put the tie wrap on that.  Some of the tape should also be wrapped

around any part being held with the tie wrap as well.  



No way that will cut through in my lifetime.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/uniwrap.php

-- 

Walter Tondu

http://www.rv7-a.com - Flying!

http://www.evorocket.com - Building

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

I was dressed down "offline" by another poster who was apparently also

an EAA TC (which I did not know from the post).  The value for all of

you reading is that everyone has opinions so make your choices wisely.

My presentation which was lost on many, yet remains as follows.



Just because someone has flown X years and Y hours without the problem

rearing its ugly head, use some common sense when selecting techniques

which are not officially supported. Choose wisely.  The TWA 800 fiasco

is throwing copious money and time at correcting conditions which "do

lead to failure in electrical systems and fuel distribution system - due

to aging aircraft". It is called "Forensic Pathology". As we are part of

the OBAM community, those of us left flying after others have become

insurance statistics pay for the mistakes of those who chose unwisely.



Zip ties are cheap, quick and we can tend to be lazy.  Do it once, do it

right stay safe.  Seek a second or third set of eyes to inspect your

work when available.  Don't get your technical advice from hangar

flying.  DARs serve a valuable service.  If you think they are buying

off your pet project as safe, get it in writing with their signature and

DAR designation number or don't make such a representation.  You may

just be reading more into the process that the FAA has granted with

their authority to review your documents during that process.



Don't even wind me up on the subject of allowing purchasers of

professional build Kitplanes (who did not build it to 51% rules) to

acquire a repairman's ticket and then maintain them in the same

insurance pool that I pay.



Nuff said.  How bout them Red Sox?



John Cox

Do Not Archive



--

n343fd(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of things to think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well built (by someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties and 590 + hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the cable ties hav e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a couple hangers away with well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no abraded paint.  I will be replacing the cable ties with adle (however you spell it) clamps over time. It just seems better to not have abraded paint. Anyone trying to decide is welcome to come over and take a look if that will help you make a decision. Don't know what is wright or wrong or acceptable in this case I just know what I have observed and the clamps appear at least to me to be a  better choice.

 

Mike Divan

Adopted - N64GH (RV6)

RV7 Builder - SLOW

EAA - 577486

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!



---

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

Here's a link to AC 43-13-1B covering wiring bundles, etc.  I do not 

imagine it is required to be followed on experimentals, but it certainly 

is a good guide...



http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99c827db9baac81b86256b4500596c4e/$FILE/Chapter%2011.pdf



Hope this helps!



Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



Mike Divan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of 

 things to think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well 

 built (by someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties 

 and 590 + hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the 

 cable ties hav e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a 

 couple hangers away with well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no 

 abraded paint.  I will be replacing the cable ties with adle (however 

 you spell it) clamps over time. It just seems better to not have 

 abraded paint. Anyone trying to decide is welcome to come over and 

 take a look if that will help you make a decision. Don't know what is 

 wright or wrong or acceptable in this case I just know what I have 

 observed and the clamps appear at least to me to be a better choice.

  

 Mike Divan

 Adopted - N64GH (RV6)

 RV7 Builder - SLOW

 EAA - 577486

 FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!

tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

NO!  How about those Indians!!!!!!!!

                                                     Tom in Ohio RV6-A 

      

[quote]> 

 Nuff said.  How bout them Red Sox?

 

 John Cox

 Do Not Archive

 

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

What some folks have been missing in this discussion is that your engine

mount is rather important, and is designed for that single purpose. It is

not designed to be the hangar or mount for a bunch of other stuff.

Minimize what you attach to the mount by any means, and use the best

techniques you can if you feel you have to attach something to the mount.

Nuff said.



[quote] I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of things to

 think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well built (by

 someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties and 590 +

 hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the cable ties hav

 e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a couple hangers away with

 well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no abraded paint.  I will be

 replacing the cable ties with adle (however you spell it) clamps over

 time. It just seems better to not have abraded paint. Anyone trying to

 decide is welcome to come over and take a look if that will help you make

 a decision. Don't know what is wright or wrong or acceptable in this case

 I just know what I have observed and the clamps appear at least to me to

 be a better choice.



 Mike Divan

 Adopted - N64GH (RV6)

 RV7 Builder - SLOW

 EAA - 577486

 FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!



 ---

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: high temp cable ties

Mike Divan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of

 things to think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well

 built (by someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties

 and 590 + hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the

 cable ties hav e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a

 couple hangers away with well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no

 abraded paint.  I will be replacing the cable ties with adle (however

 you spell it) clamps over time. It just seems better to not have

 abraded paint. Anyone trying to decide is welcome to come over and

 take a look if that will help you make a decision. Don't know what is

 wright or wrong or acceptable in this case I just know what I have

 observed and the clamps appear at least to me to be a better choice.


	




Since my original post has been quoted on several of the replies in this 

thread, I want to clear up a couple of things:



1) I agreed with the the person to whom I replied that adel clamps are 

the preferred way to secure item to the engine mount tubes. I have 

several adel clamps in my engine installation.



2) I disagree with the assertion that the use of cable ties will always 

doom your engine mount to certain damage. Mine and the experience of 

many other builders would invalidate this position.



Our engine compartments are monitored much more closely than many 

certificated planes and we have ample opportunity to catch problems 

before they become problems. If you have used cable ties to attach 

wiring to the mount, then replacing them with adel clamps would 

certainly be in keeping with certificated practice. But if the ties 

remain in place, just keep an eye on them and replace them if/when you 

see anything that bothers you.



Common sense rules.  



Sam Buchanan

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

On the other hand, I have seen damage on our 6a caused by cable ties. 

Most places, it just wore through the paint. Other places, it did some 

some damage to the metal. We still have some cable ties, but now they 

have tape or rubber hose between them and the engine mount. I highly 

recommend protecting the engine mount from cable ties and any other 

possible cause of chafing. Even if the metal isn't damaged, it is 

unprotected from corrosion unless you chase it down, prime and paint it.

Pax,

Ed Holyoke

Sam Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Mike Divan wrote:

> I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of

> things to think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well

> built (by someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties

> and 590 + hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the

> cable ties hav e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a

> couple hangers away with well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no

> abraded paint.  I will be replacing the cable ties with adle (however

> you spell it) clamps over time. It just seems better to not have

> abraded paint. Anyone trying to decide is welcome to come over and

> take a look if that will help you make a decision. Don't know what is

> wright or wrong or acceptable in this case I just know what I have

> observed and the clamps appear at least to me to be a better choice.

 Since my original post has been quoted on several of the replies in 

 this thread, I want to clear up a couple of things:

 1) I agreed with the the person to whom I replied that adel clamps are 

 the preferred way to secure item to the engine mount tubes. I have 

 several adel clamps in my engine installation.

 2) I disagree with the assertion that the use of cable ties will 

 always doom your engine mount to certain damage. Mine and the 

 experience of many other builders would invalidate this position.

 Our engine compartments are monitored much more closely than many 

 certificated planes and we have ample opportunity to catch problems 

 before they become problems. If you have used cable ties to attach 

 wiring to the mount, then replacing them with adel clamps would 

 certainly be in keeping with certificated practice. But if the ties 

 remain in place, just keep an eye on them and replace them if/when you 

 see anything that bothers you.

 Common sense rules.  

 Sam Buchanan

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: high temp cable ties

Good grief......now my post to clear up how I was originally misquoted 

has been misquoted.........



Guess I will just have to go hang myself with some oil-soaked, abraded 

nylon cable ties.....  



Sam Buchanan



=======================



Ed wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 On the other hand, I have seen damage on our 6a caused by cable ties. 

 Most places, it just wore through the paint. Other places, it did some 

 some damage to the metal. We still have some cable ties, but now they 

 have tape or rubber hose between them and the engine mount. I highly 

 recommend protecting the engine mount from cable ties and any other 

 possible cause of chafing. Even if the metal isn't damaged, it is 

 unprotected from corrosion unless you chase it down, prime and paint it.

 

 Pax,

 

 Ed Holyoke

 

 Sam Buchanan wrote:

 

> 

>

> Mike Divan wrote:

>

>> I have been watching the cable tie debate with interest. Lots of

>> things to think about on both sides. My little bird is extremely well

>> built (by someone other than me so I can say that) it has cable ties

>> and 590 + hours. Checking my little bird out I have noticed that the

>> cable ties hav e abraded some paint. I have looked at a 6 just a

>> couple hangers away with well over 2000 hours, adle clamps and no

>> abraded paint.  I will be replacing the cable ties with adle (however

>> you spell it) clamps over time. It just seems better to not have

>> abraded paint. Anyone trying to decide is welcome to come over and

>> take a look if that will help you make a decision. Don't know what is

>> wright or wrong or acceptable in this case I just know what I have

>> observed and the clamps appear at least to me to be a better choice.

>

> Since my original post has been quoted on several of the replies in 

> this thread, I want to clear up a couple of things:

>

> 1) I agreed with the the person to whom I replied that adel clamps are 

> the preferred way to secure item to the engine mount tubes. I have 

> several adel clamps in my engine installation.

>

> 2) I disagree with the assertion that the use of cable ties will 

> always doom your engine mount to certain damage. Mine and the 

> experience of many other builders would invalidate this position.

>

> Our engine compartments are monitored much more closely than many 

> certificated planes and we have ample opportunity to catch problems 

> before they become problems. If you have used cable ties to attach 

> wiring to the mount, then replacing them with adel clamps would 

> certainly be in keeping with certificated practice. But if the ties 

> remain in place, just keep an eye on them and replace them if/when you 

> see anything that bothers you.

>

> Common sense rules.  

>

> Sam Buchanan

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