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gmcjetpilot
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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Bruce:
What lighting protection does your little EFIS system installation have?
May be the box it self has DO specs, but the installation does not.
One lightning strke *could* take it ALL OUT. George
>From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
| Quote: | Subject: RE: EFIS as only reference???
I don't think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed
>to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160
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| Quote: | (electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There
>aresome under 100k systems that meet those standards.
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[quote][b]
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Bruce(at)glasair.org
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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My airplane is plastic and I stay away from lightning as far as possible. Another reason to have a vacuum ADI.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
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mlas(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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I’ve been struck by lighting 3 time in my flying career. If you are in a little airplane and get struck, the least of your worries will be worrying if the EFIS continues to work. And that goes double for the E-glass guys.
Mike
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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I know because most of it runs on a Windows based operating system, and
has not been designed from the start to comply with the relevant
standards (if it had Windows would not have been used). There is no way
that Windows anything will ever be compatible with a real time safety
critical system (because it wasn't designed from the outset for that
task). That's not to say it wont work just about all of the time, but do
you want to risk your life on it?
But that's not the point. The point is that you are taking a risk by
using 2 non certified systems to back each other up. Its difficult to
quantify that risk without in depth knowledge of how each system was
designed & built, and that information is difficult to come by. The fact
that Cheltons are so expensive illustrates the issue, very few people on
this list could afford one - come to that I suspect not many could
afford a Garmin G900!
I know that Trutrak makes very good equipment, there are also many other
companies that make rather poor stuff and its difficult to tell by
looking at the outside. Its not about meeting govt standards, industry
standards are just as strict. If it were easy to make a robust system
cheaply I suspect Garmin would be offering one, that their cheapest is
around $50K (I think) might be a hint as to the scale of the problem.
Peter
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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In general, "Certification" means that at some point the system passed
certain set of criteria and the design was frozen at that point. It won't
get any better unless something is found to be broken and has to be fixed,
otherwise it is a design frozen in time, like a Lycomming 0-360 or a Cessna
172. Sure, they change -but only in ways that won't make them go through
certification again.
I don't know about most of the great looking new low cost EFIS systems, but
I know for certain that my Bluemountain EFIS/one does not use a Windows
operating system, and I wouldn't veto a system that did. I have read that
Windows is very stable when it is used in a system that is isolated from
other software. An EFIS is not constantly being exposed to various other
programs, viruses and hackers like a PC is. It is isolated, or used with
limited and tested outside software.
The downside of most "certified" products is that they are the best that a
company could come up with and get through the tests and to market, at some
point in the past. If you feel the need for a certified engine, get one, but
I don't think your certified Lycoming is any more reliable than my
non-certified Superior. If you don't trust non-certified avionics, then pay
the price for the tried and tested and blessed, but don't expect to get if
for anything like the price of the non-certified, and don't expect to have
the advantages of the latest technology.
It would seem that many of those who fly big airplanes for a living tend not
to trust little airplanes anyway, especially the ones with only one engine
and certainly not the ones that don't have dual redundant certified IFR
avionics.
And if it wasn't built by "certified" A&P's in a "certified" shop, forget
about it!
Terry
RV-8A, Superior, True-Trak, Trio, Bluemountain, Airflow Performance -- all
uncertified
And none of it flying yet
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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I can see that I have not presented my thoughts very well. I am not
advocating certified over uncertified, but well designed products.
I would be very reticent in holding Blue Mountain up as an example of a
well designed system because of their unwillingness to discuss their
design and development process - at least when I have asked them.
To suggest that Windows is only stable when isolated from other software
makes it a completely useless product. The whole point of an operating
system is to act as an interface layer between an application (such as a
piece of EFIS software) and a host system. Windows is not designed as a
real time operating system, sure it can be used as such, but there are
better products available - at a price.
I don't fly large airplanes for a living, but I do design military
aircraft, in particular avionic architectures. I am suggesting that
devices that are required to function reliably should be designed (and
manufactured) in a demonstrably robust way. One way to show that is to
prove to a regulator by jumping through the certification hoops. There
are other ways, of course. As there is little service history for most
of these devices how can we, prospective customers, make an informed
decision as to which one to buy? Its rather difficult in my opinion as
most manufacturers don't make enough data available
The other option is to install a back-up that does have some kind of
provenance. Another EFIS doesn't provide sufficient redundancy for me.
Peter
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glastar(at)gmx.net
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: EFIS as only reference??? |
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Hello Peter
| Quote: | There is no way
that Windows anything will ever be compatible with a real time safety
critical system (because it wasn't designed from the outset for that
task).
Windows with all the overhead I would agree, however the Kernel of it is
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used in several certificated Avionics products, look once at the MX-20
when it is booting, it has a Windows 3.51 Kernel which is stable and
secure, just all the fancy tools on top make things complicated and
sometimes unstable.
However I agree I would and will not trust an EFIS on top of a standard
windows operating system.
Werner
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