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compensation

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rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: compensation

Am I incorrect in my recollection that it is a commercial AND a second class

medical.  Just having a commercial won't get the job done........right or

wrong??



Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp



--

ggg6(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: compensation

Hi Doug, Yes You are correct , If You hold a commerical license, You must also have a current 2nd class medical to be compensated as far as the FAA is concerned...  Gary G

 [quote]-------------- Original message from "doug sapp" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>: -------------- 

[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp" 

 

 Am I incorrect in my recollection that it is a commercial AND a second class 

 medical. Just having a commercial won't get the job done........right or 

 wrong?? 

 

 Always Yakin, 

 Doug Sapp 

 

 --

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: compensation

And, guys best have both. Put yourself in the shoes of that  FSDO guy out to serve his customers. I big gaggle of pilots getting free gas and  rooms. I can just see the purple haze descending now. It is kind of like  fishing, fun when there is one or two fish around with a pole, but when you get  a complete shoal it's time to get the nets out !!!!

  

 Gus



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    ggg6(at)att.net

Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:00    PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:    compensation

   

   

Hi Doug, Yes You are correct , If You hold a commerical license,    You must also have a current 2nd class medical to be compensated as far as the    FAA is concerned...  Gary G

    	  Quote: 	
		  --------------      Original message from "doug sapp" <rvfltd(at)televar.com>: --------------      

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "doug sapp"      

 

 Am I incorrect in my recollection that      it is a commercial AND a second class 

 medical. Just having a      commercial won't get the job done........right or 

 wrong?? 

      

 Always Yakin, 

 Doug Sapp 

 

 -----Original      Message----- 

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com 

      [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez      

 Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:50 PM 

 To:      yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Subject: Re: Wing Over Miami      

 

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: Ernest      Martinez 

 

 You need a commercial, even      if youre not being compsns ated??? 

 

 Ernie 

 

      On 2/13/06, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote: 

 > This      next week-end Feb. 17-18-19 is the Wings Over Miami airshow at 

      Tamiami 

 > airport. A number of RPA members are members of WOM      and usually 

 participate 

 > in this show. The WOM usually      takes care of fuel used during the show. 

 > This year because of      finances they are unable to provide rooms or 

 > transportation.      It is a 501-3c organization so all expenses are 

 deductible.      

 > 

 > You do not have to be a member of WOM to      participate in the airshow, but 

 > must have a commercial,      current second class physical, and current FAST 

 > card. I'll be      going down there mid day on Friday (maybe earlier). 

 > 

      > All aircraft are welcome. Sam Sax is the contact down there. 

      > 

 > Jim "Pappy" Goolsby 

 

&g gt; 
	


 	  Quote:

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: compensation

This  is the point I attempted to make over a year ago, and it fell on deaf ears then  and I don't expect much more now. 

  

  As us boomers get older and loose we our ability to pass a second  class medical and are forced to accept a third class we will all find  ourselves in violation of the regs.  The result will be that less and  less of the "interesting" aircraft will be attending the airshows and fly  ins.  This very real problem should be of great interest to every air  show performer and promoter as well as the owners of these aircraft.    My question is the same now as it was then.......what can we do about  it?  What is the EAA's position on this?

  

 Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp 

 [quote]   --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: compensation

We understand the same. If aviating for compensation both are required.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: doug sapp <rvfltd(at)televar.com>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/14/2006 11:06:40 AM

 Subject: compensation

 Am I incorrect in my recollection that it is a commercial AND a second

class

[quote] medical.  Just having a commercial won't get the job done........right or

 wrong??

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: compensation

Think we can get the EAA and AOPA to get us an "Experimental Show Sport Pilot" catagory. That way we can fly light warbirds and get pureed meals provided at the airshows too.

 Truthfully, Doug  I agree this is going to be a problem in the future for those of us that are starting to get long in the tooth. But, we probably are not going to get an help on this issue. Look at how hard it is to keep a very health octagenarian flying now! They have to go through as much for a Third class as most have to go through for a First Class if they even have a hint of a systemic disease like hypertension.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: compensation

doug sapp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Am I incorrect in my recollection that it is a commercial AND a second class

 medical.  Just having a commercial won't get the job done........right or

 wrong??


	


Right.



You need to be able to exercise the privileges of the commercial ticket 

and that requires a 2nd-class medical.



Brian

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: compensation

doug sapp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This is the point I attempted to make over a year ago, and it fell on 

 deaf ears then and I don't expect much more now. 

  

  As us boomers get older and loose we our ability to pass a second class 

 medical and are forced to accept a third class we will all find 

 ourselves in violation of the regs.  The result will be that less and 

 less of the "interesting" aircraft will be attending the airshows and 

 fly ins.  


	


Well, in spite of their official mandate, the FAA is not in the habit of 

promoting aviation. You probably aren't going to win this one with them. 

If someone gives you something for flying in, you are receiving 

compensation. Compensation requires a commercial ticket and a 2nd-class 

medical.



So how do you beat the system? One way seems to me to have someone else 

act as PIC of your aircraft to get it there. They don't get anything 

except a ride to the event. You, as owner and not PIC, can accept the 

"compensation". Since you did not act as pilot in command, you are not 

exercising the privileges of a commercial ticket. This certainly stomps 

all over the spirit of the law while adhering to the letter. This 

strikes me as a good thing to do with stupid rules and laws.



This last time I took my flight physical I needed three different sets 

of glasses to pass the vision test (far, intermediate, and near) but I 

managed to pass. That is the only thing that gives me trouble. What 

gives you trouble that you can pass a 3rd-class but not a 2nd-class? 

Perhaps we can find a way to deal with the problem and let you get a 2nd 

class medical again.



Brian Lloyd

brian-yak(at)lloyd.com

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: compensation

Concur.... my Flight Doc here locally told me that the only real difference between 2nd and 3rd was the eye test.     

I did the same thing.  Got some glasses that allowed me to have 20/10 distance vision.... and passed the 2nd.    

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK    

--

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: compensation

I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST  wing,2500 Pic. The rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser  stick? I dont think so. I would  like to sign up for the airshow form.  pilots. BUT WHY SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the reasoning  behind this sort of rationational other than so much POLITICAL B.S.

 [quote]   ---

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: compensation

On Feb 18, 2006, at 5:59 PM, forrest johnson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST wing,2500 Pic. The rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser stick? I dont think so. I would  like to sign up for the airshow form. pilots. BUT WHY SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the reasoning behind this sort of rationational other than so much POLITICAL B.S. 	


The reason is because the air shows will be compensating the REDSTARS. And the FAA does not allow you to take compensation in any form be it fuel, rooms or cash without a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical

ByronMFox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: compensation

While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege.  Don't you love semantics? ...Blitz

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: compensation

Byron

 Just as food for though......if someone is  going to bust my head in or kill my family then don't I have a NATURAL right to  defend myself? 

  

 Isn't it a NATURAL right to protect  yourself and your family from those that would do you harm?

  

 Well, of course these are NATURAL  rights.......few would argue you  can't protect yourself.

  

 No one has the "privilege" to take  these rights away from you.

  

 Ask yourself............... "do I think  I have a NATURAL right to do the following"?

  

 Eat?

 Sleep?

 Make a living?

 Raise your children?

 Teach your children as you see  fit?

 Build a roof over your head?

 Transport yourself?

 Make clothes?

 Build an automobile?

 Play a game of chess?

 Work in your machine shop?

 Research new inventions?

 Help your fellow man?

 Take a breath of air?

 Walk?

 Run?

 Lift an object?

 Skate on a lake?

 Fish for your food?

 Grow your own food?

 Cook your own meals?

 Read books?

 Speak your mind?

 Travel?

 Worship your God?

 Say a prayer?

 Live a full life?

  

 Do you think you have a right to do these  things? 

  

 Or do you think government GIVES you these  rights?

  

 Walking,  eating, flying, procreation, driving, talking, hunting, fishing, home building  are all a NATURAL right!

  

 No government entity is "entitled" to  GRANT me "privileges" to do these things.......... because they are not  privileges......they are NATURAL rights!

  

 Frank

  

 PS Are you willing to give away your NATURAL  rights to government regulation? If so then let's start with your PRIVILEGE to  free speech.

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: compensation

forrest johnson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am pvt. multi eng. inst. over 150 hr form, FAST wing,2500 Pic. The

 rules call for Com.,2 Class .Does this make me a lesser stick? I dont

 think so. I would  like to sign up for the airshow form. pilots. BUT WHY

 SHOULD I ? Would sombody please explane the reasoning behind this sort

 of rationational other than so much POLITICAL B.S.


	


Having the commercial rating implies a greater level of demonstrated

capability but the medical requirement is just 100% BS.



They whole medical thing is just so much BS. It tells you that, on the

day you got your exam, you were in reasonable health. You could drop

dead the next day.



Case in point, my father was out flying legally and still playing

basketball. He went in for some minor surgery and they discovered

something very minor in his ECG. They did further tests and decided to

do a triple-bypass. It was 100% successful. He had never suffered a

heart attack. So, with the problem with his heart, he was allowed to fly

with a valid medical certificate. After the problem was corrected and he

was even safer to fly, his medical certificate was revoked. Go figure.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: compensation

ByronMFox(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   While we all have a First Amendment Right to free speech, widely

 exercised on this list, the FAA grants us "privileges" to fly. We have

 no rights of any type where flight is concerned. So, the FAA says to

 receive so much as a sandwich as compensation for appearing at an

 airshow, we must hold a commercial ticket and a 2nd class medical. Thems

 the rules. Sorry, such is the nature of a privilege.  Don't you love

 semantics? ...Blitz


	


Of course, that begs the question of the FAA's legitimacy. What gives

them the right to grant or not grant "privileges"?



More semantics.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: compensation

Frank Haertlein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Byron

 Just as food for though......if someone is going to bust my head in or

 kill my family then don't I have a NATURAL right to defend myself?


	


What is wrong Frank? I find myself in agreement with you again.



BTW, if you go to ARS, I will be happy to fly with you, provide

instruction, etc., even if you aren't wearing a flight suit. Maybe we

can get a whole cadre of non-flight-suit-wearing pilots to show up at

ARS to fly.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

wild.blue(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: compensation

 John--

  

 Thanks for citing the case.  Wondered where it came from.  The facts are a little different than I expected--interesting.

  

 I belong to a glider club, non-profit tax status (feds) corporation (for liability reasons), but the state (WA) insists we are indeed a profit making business ("just like a health club") because we "charge" ourselves for the cost of operation.  So, we gotta have a biz license, charge sales tax, pay B&O tax etc., but not always because that would be too simple, even though we're just paying the actual cost of flying what we already own.  In fact, things have been pretty slow for a few years now, so we've actually been losing $$$.  And then we have this compensation thing with various club officers (lucky souls), CFI's, towpilots etc. who don't have to pay extra cash money to do the work of operating what we already own for the benefit of fellow clubbers, i.e., the CFI's don't pay for the cost of "flying" the glider, towpilots don't pay for the cost of flying the towplane etc.  Plus, we don't pay dues ($20/mo) in exchange for volunteering to do that extra work.  That is "compensation."  Who knows what the IRS would make of this--don't even want to think about that.

  

 For instance, yesterday I got lucky and got a little "compensation."  Up at o'dark, off to the airport, it's 20F, drank three gallons of coffee, waited two hours for people to show up, waited two more hours before making the first flight, stood around most of the rest of the day in that 20F, made a total of four tows and got home about six.  Ten hours work (yes, its fun, but its work) and my "compensation" is I got to put one hour on the tach of our Pawnee, froze my buns, nose and toes.  I do this once or twice a month and have given more than 2000 tows over many years, never paid a penny for my efforts, nor have I ever paid for the pleasure of doing it, plus I have have held just about every officer position in the club, done lots of maintenance work etc.  But then one man's dues is another's compensation.

  

 Since one of the flights yesterday was for a prospective member and he paid $50 for it (actual cost only at best, no profit for sure), that is considered a "commercial" operation and I have to have a commercial certificate and a second class medical, likewise the CFI.  If he'da been a bona fide club member (paid his membership fees, dues etc.) that wouldn't have been a "commercial" operation even though the CFI and I are gaining "compensation" because we don't have to pay in cash to give this guy a taste of what soaring is about.  Following this?

  

 Nobody is paid for any of the work of making our club operate.  We sure don't make any money on our operations.  But we have to go through all this tax nonsense (on our tippy toes)so we can fly what we jointly own (but being a non-profit, have no equity in) at cost.  We don't give "rides" or tows to generate $$$.  It's all a strictly cost basis operation if we're lucky, totally dependent on volunteer labor to make any of it happen, all done for the simple joy of flying in silence.  But us CFI's, towpilots and club officers are considered to be "compensated" if we can derive any sort of quid pro quo for our efforts, i.e. the pleasure of using what we own.  Hey, it's fun, but it's work, too, and we OWN it.  The insurance company enforces all this through their exceptions to coverage and we're not really sure if what we do will stand up in court if it comes to that.

  

 So, be careful out there.  If you're having too much fun flying your own airplane, that might be considered "compensation."  And we all know that gas, sandwiches, motel etc. don't come close to paying actual expenses, or even half (to be shared with other "beneficiaries").

  

 Though there are lots of helpful and dedicated folks out there doing the best they can, one jerk makes an idiot call and the rest of us pay forever until some poor unfortunate has to go through the drill to overturn.  That's just the way our legal system works.

  

 So go gets yousef a commershull tickie and a second class medico and just hope that covers it.  You pays your money and you gets what you gets.  Life in the fast lane and all, doncha know!

   

 [img]cid:07BA88E1-43E1-43A6-AAD8-E5399F5209D4[/img]

  Jerry Painter

  

 [img]cid:600027D4-DAB8-41EB-8A1E-A315715CA92B[/img]Wild Blue Aviation 

 425-876-0865[img]cid:837BC03A-F084-4009-9823-B29F92FEDD86[/img]wild.blue(at)verizon.net (wild.blue(at)verizon.net) [img]cid:14FC5256-677C-4C44-9226-31B04AC8479B[/img]

  http://mysite.verizon.net/res0cs5r/index.html 

  

  

  Time: 05:25:06 PM PST US

 Subject: RE: Re: compensation issue, my second last try.

 Re:  From: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

  

 There was a precedent setting case adjudicated by the FAA legal division

 in DC about 12 years ago that clarified and set this in motion. 

  

 There was a Private pilot operating a Cessna tow plane for his flying

 club (back in Nebraska, I recall).  He would fly without compensation,

 (sandwich or gas) for the chance to provide assistance of other members

 of his glider club seeking a tow to altitude.  The final interpretation

 was that those hours acquired by such action could not be used as logged

 "Aeronautical Experience in the seeking of an additional rating... hence

 Commercial".  Conclusion - he would have had to expend monies to rent a

 plane and acquire such additional experience.  His reduction in

 expenditure =3D more money in his pocket at the end, by not buying the

 hours, so he was indirectly compensated and should not have used the

 logged entries in pursuit of the next rating.

  

  

He filed a lawsuit and the outcome generated an IRS tax ruling and an

 FAA policy change at the time that it was indeed a form of tangible

 compensation. His attorney failed to prevail. The side note was that he

 still got the Commercial many years later after paying to get the needed

 hours.

  

  

 A properly informed administrator and his/her agents can indeed

 redirect, reinterpret or change such a legal department conclusion.

 Marion Blakely had done a lot for GA but It has not happened since to my

 knowledge.  It had a big impact on some segments of GA activities.

 Somewhere in my files I have the case law.

  

  

 John Cox - former FAA DPE and now five years removed.

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