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jb92563
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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What will happen to all these FAT Ultralights that have not registered for the E-LSA designation?
Can you still register them as E-LSA or can you register them as a regular Experimental aircraft.
Can we expect a lot of PARTS coming onto the market in 2008?
I was wondering what value the remaining FAT Ultralights have in the US that are for sale still.
I believe some may still qualify as Ultralights in Canada however.
Ray
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Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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At 03:56 PM 10/10/2007, jb92563 wrote:
| Quote: | Can you still register them as E-LSA or can you register them as a
regular Experimental aircraft.
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Once the deadline's passed, you're screwed, unless you can "prove" you
built it yourself.
Could be we'll see a thriving black market for construction photos, perhaps
photoshopped to put the "builder" into the picture...
-Dana
--
--
But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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According to DAR, Mike Huffman, you would have to try to certify the plane as E-AB. If you falsify the fact that you built it, there is a fee up to $10,000 or 5 years in prison.
Check out page 4 of 5 under "What if you miss the deadline?" section in his article:
http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/Apr_07_PrepForCertDeadline.pdf
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Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
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jb92563
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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Is there no E-LSA category after the deadline, or do they have to appear on a list of approved E-LSA aircraft to be built from scratch?
For example, What if I wanted to complete my Moni Motorglider and because it meets the LSA parameters I could register it as E-LSA instead of E-AB?
Guess I need to do some research on the matter and talk to a DAR.
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Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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Ray, Refer to FAR 21.191 i(2)i and i(2)ii and i(3). There will be E-LSA's, that's the good news. Your Moni won't qualify, that's the bad news.
On 2-1-08 There are three ways to get an E-LSA.
First 21.191 i (i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that—
(2) Has been assembled—
(i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by §21.193(e); and
(ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or
(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190. 21.193 Experimental certificates: general.
An applicant for an experimental certificate must submit the following information: (e) In the case of a light-sport aircraft assembled from a kit to be certificated in accordance with §21.191(i)(2), an applicant must provide the following:
(1) Evidence that an aircraft of the same make and model was manufactured and assembled by the aircraft kit manufacturer and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
(2) The aircraft's operating instructions.
(3) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures.
(4) The manufacturer's statement of compliance for the aircraft kit used in the aircraft assembly that meets §21.190(c), except that instead of meeting §21.190(c)(7), the statement must identify assembly instructions for the aircraft that meet an applicable consensus standard.
(5) The aircraft's flight training supplement.
(6) In addition to paragraphs (e)(1) through (e)(5) of this section, for an aircraft kit manufactured outside of the United States, evidence that the aircraft kit was manufactured in a country with which the United States has a Bilateral Airworthiness Agreement concerning airplanes or a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement with associated Implementation Procedures for Airworthiness concerning airplanes, or an equivalent airworthiness agreement.
So let's jump to 21.190 c
(c) Manufacturer's statement of compliance for light-sport category aircraft. The manufacturer's statement of compliance required in paragraph (b)(1)(iii) of this section must—
(1) Identify the aircraft by make and model, serial number, class, date of manufacture, and consensus standard used;
(2) State that the aircraft meets the provisions of the identified consensus standard;
(3) State that the aircraft conforms to the manufacturer's design data, using the manufacturer's quality assurance system that meets the identified consensus standard;
(4) State that the manufacturer will make available to any interested person the following documents that meet the identified consensus standard:
(i) The aircraft's operating instructions.
(ii) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures.
(iii) The aircraft's flight training supplement.
(5) State that the manufacturer will monitor and correct safety-of-flight issues through the issuance of safety directives and a continued airworthiness system that meets the identified consensus standard;
(6) State that at the request of the FAA, the manufacturer will provide unrestricted access to its facilities; and
(7) State that the manufacturer, in accordance with a production acceptance test procedure that meets an applicable consensus standard has—
(i) Ground and flight tested the aircraft;
(ii) Found the aircraft performance acceptable; and
(iii) Determined that the aircraft is in a condition for safe operation.
So at least you don't have to have the manufacturer test fly the aircraft for you, but they will control every other aspect of your E-LSA.
Anyway, unless John Monnett decides to build and certify the Moni to the consensus standard, you're out of luck as an E-LSA.Rick
On 10/11/07, jb92563 <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)>
Is there no E-LSA category after the deadline, or do they have to appear on a list of approved E-LSA aircraft to be built from scratch?
For example, What if I wanted to complete my Moni Motorglider and because it meets the LSA parameters I could register it as E-LSA instead of E-AB?
Guess I need to do some research on the matter and talk to a DAR.
--------
Ray
Riverside County, CA
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=139435#139435 = - The Kolb-L://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB F=======================
[b]
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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At 03:24 PM 10/11/2007, jb92563 wrote:
| Quote: |
Is there no E-LSA category after the deadline, or do they have to appear
on a list of approved E-LSA aircraft to be built from scratch?
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See http://www.kitplanes.com/sportplanes/0505-3740.pdf for a very good
article explaining all the SLSA/ELSA/EAB variations. Should answer all
your questions.
-Dana
--
--
But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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Dana, et al, I'll call the Light Sport Branch tomorrow, to confirm, but Ron's take on E-LSA is not what I learned at Corning. That was last year and LSA has been pretty fluid, so who knows.
The version I got was, Yes you could modify your S-LSA or E-LSA (registered after 2-1-08 doesn't apply to those grandfathered in and registered under 21.191 i (1)), but you had to get a letter of authorization from the manufacturer listing your airplane by N number. This was to prevent exactly what Ron says you can do to something like the Cessna Skycatcher. I can't imagine Jack Pelton's fleet of attorneys would have given him the go ahead to produce the 162 if they thought somebody could pull off the O-200D and strap on a Chevy V-6 while the Cessna name was still painted on the tail. The media doesn't make such distinctions, and a crashed Cessna is a crashed Cessna.
As I got it, the only advantage to E-LSA was that you could go take the Repairman Inspector weekend class and do your own conditional inspections. For that you lost the ability to teach in it or rent it. But like S-LSA, unauthorized modifications to an E-LSA voided your airworthiness certificate. I'll get back to you all with an answer, tomorrow.
Rick
On 10/11/07, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)>
At 03:24 PM 10/11/2007, jb92563 wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" < jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)>
Is there no E-LSA category after the deadline, or do they have to appear
on a list of approved E-LSA aircraft to be built from scratch?
|
See http://www.kitplanes.com/sportplanes/0505-3740.pdf for a very good
article explaining all the SLSA/ELSA/EAB variations. Should answer all
your questions.
[b]
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: Remaining FAT ultralights after Deadline |
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Dana, I just got off the phone with Edsel Ford at the light sport branch. I was wrong in my interpretation of E-LSA after 1-31-08. Have to go back to my notes from RM class and see where I got off course. While you must present an aircraft for inspection that is strictly controlled by the plans or kit, once you get an experimental certificate, you are free to experiment as you so desire.
For those interested, and those who might go off Kolb and buy an S-LSA. The reason for 21.191 (i) 3 is to support orphaned fleets. If you buy an S-LSA and the builder goes belly up, you cannot remain in S-LSA as you would then have no network of support for issuing Service Instructions and Service Bulletins, as required. Your only option is to convert to E-LSA which this provision ( 21.191 (i) 3) allows you to do.
Rick
On 10/11/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote]Dana, et al, I'll call the Light Sport Branch tomorrow, to confirm, but Ron's take on E-LSA is not what I learned at Corning. That was last year and LSA has been pretty fluid, so who knows.
The version I got was, Yes you could modify your S-LSA or E-LSA (registered after 2-1-08 doesn't apply to those grandfathered in and registered under 21.191 i (1)), but you had to get a letter of authorization from the manufacturer listing your airplane by N number. This was to prevent exactly what Ron says you can do to something like the Cessna Skycatcher. I can't imagine Jack Pelton's fleet of attorneys would have given him the go ahead to produce the 162 if they thought somebody could pull off the O-200D and strap on a Chevy V-6 while the Cessna name was still painted on the tail. The media doesn't make such distinctions, and a crashed Cessna is a crashed Cessna.
As I got it, the only advantage to E-LSA was that you could go take the Repairman Inspector weekend class and do your own conditional inspections. For that you lost the ability to teach in it or rent it. But like S-LSA, unauthorized modifications to an E-LSA voided your airworthiness certificate. I'll get back to you all with an answer, tomorrow.
Rick
On 10/11/07, Dana Hague < d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[b]
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